Comments for November 26, 2012 at http://hockey.dobbersports.com , comment 1 to 41 out of 20 comments http://hockey.dobbersports.com Thu, 20 Jun 2013 08:01:21 +0100 FeedCreator 1.7.3 http://hockey.dobbersports.com/index.php/other-features-mainmenu-89/archived-ramblings/5079-november-26-2012#comment-23397 .....so many people around here belong to a union I feel sorry for those who see the world in black and white.....or maybe I'm jealous because it would be so much easier that way. The bottom line is that unions are neither good nor bad, sometimes they serve a purpose and other times they serve to destroy the very thing they're attempting to leverage. - 4horsemen Tue, 27 Nov 2012 07:40:09 +0100 http://hockey.dobbersports.com/index.php/other-features-mainmenu-89/archived-ramblings/5079-november-26-2012#comment-23389 I think the main complaint against destroying unions come from historical facts. Do we really want the mega rich and their hired hands choosing what is and isn't allowed in the workplace ? There is a long and ugly history of the 1% cutting back on wages and increasing hours. Its right there for anyone willing to pick up a book. Many people have given their lives in the fight for a 40 hour work week or for a free weekend with the family. The difference is that crushing the union is an achievable goal for those with the money, while crushing those with the money & power is most likely impossible to achieve. So please union bashers be careful what ye wish for. You just may get it. - donpaulo Mon, 26 Nov 2012 19:58:50 +0100 http://hockey.dobbersports.com/index.php/other-features-mainmenu-89/archived-ramblings/5079-november-26-2012#comment-23387 Sovereign must have been visited by the Tim Thomas family-faith-friends tour. No one on here is suggesting taking away Dobber's right to express his opinion. They are just expressing their own opinions. I'm sick of people playing the "Freedom of Speech" card when their opinion is attacked. - CallMeJerry Mon, 26 Nov 2012 19:12:34 +0100 http://hockey.dobbersports.com/index.php/other-features-mainmenu-89/archived-ramblings/5079-november-26-2012#comment-23386 Not in my opinion. You have nothing to apologize for by being anti-union or at minimum non-union. Or Even Pro-union. I am not a union supporter myself. And I was once part of a union (a long time ago). "I may disagree with what you have to say, but I shall defend, to the death, your right to say it." Voltaire. So pro-union folks, get off his back, because without the same freedom of speech he is exercising, YOU WOULD HAVE NO UNION! - Sovereign Mon, 26 Nov 2012 19:03:13 +0100 http://hockey.dobbersports.com/index.php/other-features-mainmenu-89/archived-ramblings/5079-november-26-2012#comment-23385 JBanks - "...(the PA) should have no say in % of revenue made avalible (sp) to the players"??? Is this your understanding? Because this is 100% wrong. Grapes - "Freedom of speech. We're all entitled to our own opinions. Ones opinion needs to be respected." People's right to express their opinions must be respected. Opinions do not need to be respected. Ridiculing or agreeing with someone's opinion is in itself expressing an opinion. - CallMeJerry Mon, 26 Nov 2012 17:54:10 +0100 http://hockey.dobbersports.com/index.php/other-features-mainmenu-89/archived-ramblings/5079-november-26-2012#comment-23384 I also support you 100% Dobber. This site is all about opinions. - grinder12 Mon, 26 Nov 2012 17:54:07 +0100 http://hockey.dobbersports.com/index.php/other-features-mainmenu-89/archived-ramblings/5079-november-26-2012#comment-23383 seriously? - repenttokyo Mon, 26 Nov 2012 17:39:21 +0100 http://hockey.dobbersports.com/index.php/other-features-mainmenu-89/archived-ramblings/5079-november-26-2012#comment-23382 Haha, you talk about how this lockout hurt you financially (which definitely sucks) and then go on to say that you have to take your daughter to an OHL game. A Friday/Saturday night game at the ACC would cost you about $100 a ticket (nosebleeds). Plus $20 to park. Plus some food/drinks/candy for your daughter and yourself ($50 minimum) At the end of the day, you should be happy you didn't have to spend roughly $300!! - Mr. Guru Mon, 26 Nov 2012 17:37:36 +0100 http://hockey.dobbersports.com/index.php/other-features-mainmenu-89/archived-ramblings/5079-november-26-2012#comment-23380 Dobber, I feel your frustration, and while my livelihood is not linked directly to the NHL, and the current lockout, I hate too am frustrated and sick of what is happening. Rogers Sportsnets 'Hockey at Noon' show had Derek Sanderson in studio late last week, talking about his new book, his career, his alcoholism, etc. and when asked what his opinion was on the current lockout he said 'its ridiculous'...'how did we get to the point where a basketball guy, and a baseball guy are in charge of the future of our game?' He is so right, because neither of these guys, Bettman or Fehr have the best of the game at heart here, and while Gary is working for the owners, I question if he still should? The have been sold such a crock over the years. With getting expansion money from the new southern markets, he grew the game into. Markets it has largely no business being in, and those clubs that make money have given much more back to the lesser teams in revenue sharing, then they made in the initial expansion fees... As for the players, well, Donald Fehr is no Bob Goodenow,, and while that may seem like a good thing when it comes to labor negotiations, the fact remains that Fehr has been hired to do a job for the PA, and he is doing it so well, that the future of the game is in limbo. He's not a hockey guy, he's never played it, I would wager he's never even watched it, and therefore he is indifferent to what ends up happening to the game. However this all plays out, Fehr won't lose any sleep, because the game is a non issue to him. That is what we as fans really need to be worried about here...they can fight over HRR, which incidentally is shrinking with each passing day. They can fight over 'make whole provisions', which seems more laughable since the owners are losing $20 million a day, and the players $8-$10 million... It's not right that the owners are bullying the players in this manner, but the fact remains that a players career is finite, and every lost pay cheque will never be made up, to say nothing of the older players who may retire if the season is flushed, or the countless bubble prospects, or 3rd and 4th liners who will get passed on the depth chart by the young up and comers, hungry to make it to the show. Overall its just sad, to think that a game and those involved in the product on and off the ice, have made such progress since the last lockout, and yet here we sit, with the another season hanging in the balance, and the so called decision makers who can't see the forest thru the trees... Puck - Puckhead Mon, 26 Nov 2012 16:33:15 +0100 http://hockey.dobbersports.com/index.php/other-features-mainmenu-89/archived-ramblings/5079-november-26-2012#comment-23379 Freedom of speech. We're all entitled to our own opinions. Ones opinion needs to be respected. Whether I agree or not, is not the case. I respect your opinions 100% about everything on this site. Peace out ... - Grapes Mon, 26 Nov 2012 16:17:25 +0100 http://hockey.dobbersports.com/index.php/other-features-mainmenu-89/archived-ramblings/5079-november-26-2012#comment-23378 Dobber you are the man, write whatever you want. Many of us will still buy the guides as they are the best out there (I'll be buying the goalie guide once it is out). Opinions are opinions everyone has them and should get to express them whenever they want without getting jumped all over for what they believe. It is your site - Rodgort Mon, 26 Nov 2012 15:29:21 +0100 http://hockey.dobbersports.com/index.php/other-features-mainmenu-89/archived-ramblings/5079-november-26-2012#comment-23377 I strongly disagree with (most of) this. People taking this personally and attacking each other has nothing to do with people not "having all the information" or whether people are "qualified". It has everything to do with a) people misinterpreting each other, b) people overstating their opinions, and c) people spreading unthinking ideology. Nor is this not "public concern". Public concern is whatever I, or you, or Tokyo, or whoever -- all as members of the public -- think it is. If we are concerned, it's public concern. In fact, while we might take issue with the Forbes article (don't know if you read it, but it's linked in the forums somewhere) that argues that we, the fans, are responsible for the lockout, there's enough truth to it (in my opinion) so as to be more than a little bit unsettling. If there's [b]any[/b] truth to it, then it's crucial for us to sort through the (mis)information and come to our own informed conclusions. It's our responsibility as fans to do this, just as it's our responsibility as citizens to sort through all the political [b]mis[/b]information that assaults us on a daily basis. - PensInThree Mon, 26 Nov 2012 15:16:15 +0100 http://hockey.dobbersports.com/index.php/other-features-mainmenu-89/archived-ramblings/5079-november-26-2012#comment-23376 good intentions but to often support the lazy and useless. makes it easy for workers to milk the system. workers who don't take coffee breaks or work 10 minutes longer in a day get evil looks. No one who makes over a million a year should need a union. great ramblings by the way. its not just the players starting to get riled up its the fans and all those secondary businesses that are losing money. - hawkdog Mon, 26 Nov 2012 15:13:28 +0100 http://hockey.dobbersports.com/index.php/other-features-mainmenu-89/archived-ramblings/5079-november-26-2012#comment-23375 It's not that its complex, its that not enough information is out there and what is out there is not fully accurate, nor fully understood, nor is it public concern. If someone has all the facts of every detail involved and understands it fully, by all means share, analize and hopefully teach/inform us. Un-qualified opinions lead to what Smack metioned and Dobber is experiancing, people attacking each other... - Jason_Banks Mon, 26 Nov 2012 13:58:00 +0100 http://hockey.dobbersports.com/index.php/other-features-mainmenu-89/archived-ramblings/5079-november-26-2012#comment-23374 If someone could make a parody of this song, it may become the best of the lockout, at least in my mind. http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=aj5OT3z1VGA - Ross The Boss Palmer Mon, 26 Nov 2012 13:03:02 +0100 http://hockey.dobbersports.com/index.php/other-features-mainmenu-89/archived-ramblings/5079-november-26-2012#comment-23373 It's disingenuous to suggest that people not get involved or comment on an issue that interests them, simply because it is 'complex.' - repenttokyo Mon, 26 Nov 2012 12:51:46 +0100 http://hockey.dobbersports.com/index.php/other-features-mainmenu-89/archived-ramblings/5079-november-26-2012#comment-23372 Me and Dobber don't see Eye to Eye on his Anti-NHLPA stance, but I don't need to shoot him down in here for it. Personally, my opinion is that the NHLPA has very little clout in a CBA negotiation as they are not a full fledged Union, they are an Association of workers who's goal should and was fairness in to work place in workers rights and health/saftey... In a Union, everyone is repersented as an equal, thust they all fight for the same base wage in the ideal of fairness and employment... The NHLPA does not fight for a fare wage policy of any type and does not look at all members as equals and encourages members to seek the best an individual can do. That said, where the NHLPA has its rights within the basic argument, is in the contract rules and rights, Free Agentcy, Arbitration, Disiplanary Hearings and basic Contract rights and Obligations, but they should have no say in % of revenue made avalible to the players, they should also have no say in revenue shareing as these are issues that need to be agreed upon by the owners of the NHL not its employees. Currently what you hear is % based and revenue related, for the owners to lockout over these, it is thier own problem within the group of owners, they are just publicly released figures used to form market analysis with. Remeber in all of this the players nor the NHLPA have not gone on strike, thust are not in anyway responsible for the current loss of hockey. The NHLPA is currenty fighting for the rights of contracted players to get paid what they are owed within thier signed contract, which is an employment right on a guarenteed contract and for the contract rules, they are not fighting FOR future earnings. Unfortunatly currently you hear that this is projected to be 56.4% the first year, 54% next year and lowers from there which are #s that the owners are throwing out there. Also the fact that these numbers are based on Hockey Related Revenue allowable to the players based upon their named and linknessed used within the marketing the game. The players are not fully entitled to all branding and other marketing of the team/orgization within NHL's revenue structure. (One of the reasons the Leafs make so much $$$ is based on the fact they have controlled their arena and rent it out since MLG opened, which will be discussed next) It should also been known that NHL player saleries is not a overly massive expence within a teams year to year model. If a team like Florida is losing 20 Million per year, its not because they are over paying on the players. One of the biggest expences on a teams books in the Arena rental agreement, which for many of the "richer" teams is owned in house thust only operating the Arena is an expence (The Leafs own/have owned ACC and MLG), In cases were the Arena is publicly owned or operated, the expence of the rink rental comes with a commision (which is the big sticking point in Pheonix). If the owners have no problem paying players 70+ million/year, how much do you think the rental/operation expences of an NHL rink is, most #s thrown out to the media is the year to year commision on an arena, not the overall rental contract. My understanding with all of these issue is rather basic, I have no economic schooling myself, nor access to any non public figures. So what I have discussed is a VERY basic overview... thus there is way more involved than what everyone in the public knows. There is way too much mis-information being released on this issue and public/media opinion is being used as leverage on both sides for the intention of keeping fans involved in the game, but unfortunatly YOUR BEING USED by both sides as leverage. This is not a straight fight for 57% or 50% or anything that can be simply stated and agreed upon with public pressure or opinion. It is best that people not get invloved or comment on the issue at all as it only leads to frustration, and more mis-information... - Jason_Banks Mon, 26 Nov 2012 12:48:06 +0100 http://hockey.dobbersports.com/index.php/other-features-mainmenu-89/archived-ramblings/5079-november-26-2012#comment-23371 Your shooting out false information my freind... Alberta is a Pro-Union province, especially in the oil sands, that doesn't mean all jobs are union. My backround is that of an Ontario Building Trades Union, a majority of contruction work done on industrial and commercial structures with government registered trades is done via unionized workers and companys. 20% of my brotheren in Ontario is currently working in Alberta due to the wages and work offered out there. Alberta sucks up Unionized workers from the Maritines, BC, Manitoba and the US also. I personally have been approched to go to Alberta and work for the union and they are openly asking for unionized employees. They also hire none unionized constuction workers as well due to lack of avalibility of workers, but most of these crews are run under the guidance of a qualified Unionized Foreperson... It is also a well known fact that due to the ammount of workers and lack of handy resources on these job sites that production of work per worker is rather low compared to most provinces, but they up thier production with the population of workers they hire... which they do to skew the numbers so that it looks much more attractive to company investors... - Jason_Banks Mon, 26 Nov 2012 12:46:56 +0100 http://hockey.dobbersports.com/index.php/other-features-mainmenu-89/archived-ramblings/5079-november-26-2012#comment-23370 i'm saying don't blame employees who want to unionize when a company shuts down their location. The company is the one that killed the jobs. I also disagree with your scabs comment. I'm not going to buy tickets to see second-tier players at NHL prices. I was a season ticket holder for the bruins for three years, so yeah, i put my money where my mouth is. But my money's not going to pay to watch 'scabs' as you call them. I think you are quite wrong about NHL players not having power. The NHL is not eternal - they are only as good as the product they put on the ice, and if you put second-tier product on the ice you disappear like the WHA did. - repenttokyo Mon, 26 Nov 2012 11:55:54 +0100 http://hockey.dobbersports.com/index.php/other-features-mainmenu-89/archived-ramblings/5079-november-26-2012#comment-23369 Walmart has every right to strike down unions, and the workers have the same right to start a union. Unions work best in 2 situations; they are a skilled group, and they are essential group When walmart goes out of their way to fight unions, it is actually a smart business move. It is heartless, but it is smart. The reality is that if you work in a walmart store, you are very replaceable. the cashiers, and even the managers are not rare or hard to find. Since they do not offer anything that anyone else cannot, they have no bargaining power. They fail to be skilled. Plumbers and other skilled people are in a much better position. If they strike, not everyone can do thier job. They have some power. And the reality is that they are needed. Eventually people will give in since they need plumbers. Hockey players are a whole nother boat. They are rare and have distinct skills, but the employer does not need them. the reality is that other leagues have had scabs play, and hockey could do the same. these guys could walk away and never play in the NHL again, but there are a lot of players who would gladly take their place. They have no power since the owners have no reason to give in. They are not an essential service. When we look at the stronger unions, most of them are essential and skilled. auto workers, teachers, police, firefighters, plumbers, electricians, ect. Not every group should have a union, since if they lack the two part test, then they have no bargaining power. Dobber is right in his ramblings that the union needs to give in. The players have no leverage to force a beneficiary result. The difference between the first few offers and what they will end up with is negligable when you look at their actual losses from not playing. - notoriousjim Mon, 26 Nov 2012 11:51:08 +0100