Comments for May 27, 2012 at http://hockey.dobbersports.com , comment 1 to 22 out of 20 comments http://hockey.dobbersports.com Thu, 23 May 2013 10:56:53 +0100 FeedCreator 1.7.3 http://hockey.dobbersports.com/index.php/home-mainmenu-1/24-rambling/4647-may-27-2012#comment-21064 Now that the Devils have moved to Newark and the Nets are soon moving to Brooklyn, it will become increasingly interesting to see if attendance gets a boost during the 2012-13 regular season, not to mention the ripple effect of possible cup title. (Even this finals appearance would normally trigger a ripple effect in attendance in most cities, in the following season, with a new generation of kids (hopefully falling in love with the team. - messierforlife Fri, 01 Jun 2012 06:50:16 +0100 http://hockey.dobbersports.com/index.php/home-mainmenu-1/24-rambling/4647-may-27-2012#comment-21036 I think we all have some idea of whats wrong with Phoenix Coyotes. As Ryan said- theyve had quite a few owners and potential owners walk away, the only one who got the boot- was due to him wanting to move the team! (Ballsilie) and the latest deal isnt done yet, and may yet fall thru. Saying someones assumptions/facts are wrong- and then offering no explanation- is a douche move. stick to TSN- they love that crap on their boards. - Rollie1967 Tue, 29 May 2012 07:22:57 +0100 http://hockey.dobbersports.com/index.php/home-mainmenu-1/24-rambling/4647-may-27-2012#comment-21015 There's a massive difference between Pens/Blackhawks and the Coyotes... Pittsburgh and Chicago have had a [b]long history[/b] of hockey. When they sucked, yes the attendance numbers were bad. But when they are good, you'd be hard pressed to get a ticket to any of their home games, plus they have a ton of marketable players to get their fan base interested. Crosby/Kane/Toews/Malkin... those are all the poster boys for NHL games and the NHL itself. Who has the same marketability power of the Coyotes? Heck Doan probably will be out the door due to all this owner turmoil. Whitney, Yandle? OEL? Tippett should be your poster boy cause he's single-handedly saving your franchise. A couple of things to keep in mind. First off the United Center isn't a two hour round trip for most commuters. It's easily accessible for their fan base. Plus they have a metro-population in Chicago of 9.8 mil people (1,318 people per square mile)... Pittsburgh, once again, Consol isn't a problem to get to and have a metro-population of about 2.5 mil (5,636 people per square mile), but the thing that works in their favour is that they have a 100% market share of the fan base. There is no NBA to directly compete with the NHL. Now you compare that to Phoenix, the location of JOBing.com arena is not ideal, the population is a bit higher at 3.2 mil, but it's more spread out (259 people per square mile) so it takes longer to get anywhere and they have the Suns to compete with for "fan attention". The attendance problem was easily fixed by icing a competitive team. That won't be a solution to solve the Coyotes' problems... I will be the first to say that I don't know the full story first hand of the entire Phoenix situation, but you being a resident there could perhaps shed more light into the situation and maybe we do have it all wrong and that there is a viable solution that would solve this problem. But you've got to at least tell us what we're "misinformed" about and what your thoughts about this whole thing are. - Ryan Ma Sun, 27 May 2012 23:31:11 +0100 http://hockey.dobbersports.com/index.php/home-mainmenu-1/24-rambling/4647-may-27-2012#comment-21014 Ryenforcers... Now that's no fun, you can't come on here and just say we're all misinformed and "grossly incorrect, flawed, ill-informed, misguided and amateurish" and then just say you're not going to spend this space justifying it... That's just like me telling off my students, but not telling them why they're getting told off... If we are flawed or incorrect, where are we being mislead? Cause everything that I've read says the Coyotes are haemorrhaging money left right and center and the the NHL has had to bail out the Coyotes organization year after year. Also there has been a new proposal from Glendale city council to actually use tax payers money to help supplement the losses of the team... Plus it doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out the attendance numbers are low... Last week I posted a picture taken from Jobing.com arena that was at best 1/10th full... If you do know something different do share, cause the Coyotes as an organization has been slammed, and there are serious doubts whether they can actually survive in Phoenix. I would honestly be delighted to have someone who's witnessing it first hand to chime in and let us know it isn't as bad as the media is making it out to be... I will be the first to admit that I'm [b]not a businessman[/b], so I have no place to judge what they are doing is right or wrong. I do however am entitled to an opinion, whether it's right or wrong we won't really know until the dust settles. With that said, intelligent business people do make silly ill-informed decisions all the time. If the Coyotes were as profitable as the Glendale city council makes it out to be, Moyes would still be the owner and wouldn't have had to sell the team. Since the move from Winnipeg, the Coyotes have had Steven Gluckstern and Richard Burke, Steve Ellman, then to Jerry Moyes, then the NHL as owners of the team in a matter of 10 years... and as far as I can tell has never had a profitable year. Since the NHL has taken over, there have been multiple "interested" owners from Jerry Reinsdorf, Jim Balsillie, Matt Hulsizer and all have pulled out or were blocked... so obviously something's afoot here or else the team would have easily sold. How quickly did the Thrashers change hands after True North lost out on the Coyotes? So do I think the Jamison group is a long-term fix to the problem? Hells no. The team will still bleed money, and will still need financial assistance from the league in terms of revenue sharing because the product itself is a poor product. There are numerous reasons why, the arena is too far away and inconvenient. There isn't a local die-hard hockey following. Phoenix is a "Suns" town. Phoenix residents barely even see snow, so how can they enjoy hockey a "winter" icy sport? So what's actually getting Jamison interested is because the Glendale City Council is willing to use tax payers money to cover the losses. But eventually, if it costs Jamison money out of his own pocket, do you think that he's going to stick around? The Coyotes should have left a long time ago, but what's propping them up is "tax payers" money given by the city council. The moral question is, should tax payers money be given to prop up a private enterprise if it's losing money left right and center and how much does it truly mean to the city of Glendale having an ice hockey team. If you can argue that spending $20 mil a year will help the economics side of things, then I would argue why do only a handful of fans show up to the games then? I can understand a city like Winnipeg using tax dollars to keep a hockey team there cause it's their identity, Canadian leave and breathe hockey, so losing a team would be devastating. When you say it has the same effect in Phoenix as it does to Winnipeg, I'd call BS, especially when 6000 fans show up to a hockey game. If the Coyotes left Phoenix there wouldn't be as much of an impact as a team leaving Edmonton, Calgary, or Ottawa... I am exactly saying that, at the end of the day, attendance is a [b]key factor[/b] in the viability of an NHL franchise. The NHL doesn't have national tv coverage yet and would barely make front page news unless it's a large market like Boston, New York, Chicago and maybe LA... So damn right I think Bettman should make relocation decisions based on attendance stats and NBA competition because that's what the[b] majority[/b] of league revenues are generated from. - Ryan Ma Sun, 27 May 2012 23:30:29 +0100 http://hockey.dobbersports.com/index.php/home-mainmenu-1/24-rambling/4647-may-27-2012#comment-21013 Long time Dobber reader from Phoenix here. Love the site and the columnists. However, I need to quickly chime in on this one. Ryan: Your facts, assumptions, and sentiments regarding the Phoenix ownership situation are grossly incorrect and flawed. You, like many others far removed, take a 10000 foot view of the situation and think you can figure it out. I'm guessing you are basing your take on other flawed/biased reporting coming from cities who desperately want a team of their own. (By the way, I hope "insert Canadian city here" gets a team...the more hockey the better, in my opinion.) The situation here is very complex with many, many moving parts and I am not going to spend this space trying to explain the economics of why the Coyotes in Phoenix make good financial sense to all key parties involved in the deal. But I ask you this: Do you really think that intelligent business people who run the NHL, the City of Glendale, and the Jamison ownership group would be working to hammer out a deal if it categorically means that keeping them is a poor decision? Clearly this is not the case. If it was, the Coyotes would have left a long time ago. The NHL and Glendale are familiar with the economics of the situation more than anyone in the Canadian media. Your fantasy hockey takes are well-informed and intelligent. However, your take on the ownership situation in Phoenix is ill-informed, misguided and very amateurish. Did you really imply that Bettman make a relocation decision attendance stats and NBA competition? If the solution to this situation was as as simple as you are making it to be, both the Pens and Blackhawks would have left the league in the early 2000s when their average attendance was near league bottom. I have no problem with people making a case that their city deserves/needs/wants and NHL team. I hope QC/Seattle/KC/Hamilton/etc get one. However, I think it is pathetic when people comment on the Phoenix ownership situation when they clearly have no idea what they are talking about. - RYENFORCERS Sun, 27 May 2012 20:49:33 +0100 http://hockey.dobbersports.com/index.php/home-mainmenu-1/24-rambling/4647-may-27-2012#comment-21012 Phoenix has poached several million dollars from other cities including Canadians via the revenue sharing system as well as the 'loans' they received from the league. Joke's on us it seems. - DuklaNation Sun, 27 May 2012 17:27:47 +0100 http://hockey.dobbersports.com/index.php/home-mainmenu-1/24-rambling/4647-may-27-2012#comment-21008 I'm no expert at this, but I think if Vegas built an arena pretty close to the strip, or better yet just right off of it. I think it can work. There's so many visitors/tourists to Vegas each and every day, that it could be sustainable. I mean you look at the numerous shows that are sold out each and every day. Surely they'd be willing to go to a game in Vegas much like they do for a show. With that said, it ends up being transient fans cause the locals wouldn't buy into it cause it's not their team. But I do agree with you in the other alternatives, a Seattle, KC, Quebec, Hamilton would all make sense. - Ryan Ma Sun, 27 May 2012 12:27:55 +0100 http://hockey.dobbersports.com/index.php/home-mainmenu-1/24-rambling/4647-may-27-2012#comment-21007 You know what I think there would be many residents of Phoenix that echo your exact same sentiments. The problem isn't Hockey itself, the problem isn't a lack of fans, the problem isn't Phoenix isn't a sports town, the problem isn't they have direct competition to the Suns... From what I've read the biggest problem is that it's the location of Glendale arena. It's like you said, people just don't have 6 hours of a day just to watch a hockey game. Especially not unless you're a die-hard fan. The only thing is what can they do to correct the problem? Cause at this rate as far as I can tell Hockey is unsustainable at it's current form. - Ryan Ma Sun, 27 May 2012 12:23:31 +0100 http://hockey.dobbersports.com/index.php/home-mainmenu-1/24-rambling/4647-may-27-2012#comment-21006 Now if everyone in the country can follow suit, maybe then they can support a team. Maybe that's an alternative for the Coyotes. Free flights to Phoenix to watch a hockey game. That seems to make more sense than to give a potential new owner $17 mil to cover "losses". Surely $17 mil worth of flights would get people visiting Phoenix and bring in some tourism dollars as well. You might be onto something! - Ryan Ma Sun, 27 May 2012 12:18:40 +0100 http://hockey.dobbersports.com/index.php/home-mainmenu-1/24-rambling/4647-may-27-2012#comment-21005 Great pick up didn't even think of that when I was writing it. - Ryan Ma Sun, 27 May 2012 12:16:39 +0100 http://hockey.dobbersports.com/index.php/home-mainmenu-1/24-rambling/4647-may-27-2012#comment-21004 I'm honestly not the best at prospect knowledge, pop over to Dobber Prospects and they'll give you a much better insight. From what I can tell size has always been a problem for him. At 5'10" I don't know if he has NHL size to get him through, but then again size is what held him back at the Junior and NHL draft and he's proven us wrong. Also keep in mind that he is an over-ager, he's 21 I believe playing in the juniors, so him notching that award is a bit different than Crosby doing it at 18... Also the Yotes aren't the greatest at developing young talent quickly. They're the sit them in the AHL and let them develop for a few years down there first, then bring them up for 12-15 mins of third line checking duties... So your time frame of 1-2 years might be a bit tight. But I do see a little bit of St. Louis in him... - Ryan Ma Sun, 27 May 2012 12:15:57 +0100 http://hockey.dobbersports.com/index.php/home-mainmenu-1/24-rambling/4647-may-27-2012#comment-21003 RE: Don Paulo I think many would be in your boat, there's not a lot needed to be done by the Rangers they're a solid side with a great coach, maybe just a few minor tweaks, but if they wanted to make a splash adding Nash wouldn't be completely out of the question. I think this year more specifically they need to build through the draft, they kinda had Vermette, Huselius, Umberger, Nash... all of those tweener 65 point upside guys, they need to really need to get younger talent and play those guys. With all of those tweener guys it really hampered the development of Brassard, Filatov, Voracek... The only problem of adding more of those types if it continues the problem. They need high-end scoring someone who'll be a superstar and carry them they need a Yakupov. Getting a Doan would be great support, but Doan doesn't have long in the NHL and you can't depend on having a 50 pointer to lead your team in scoring... Not unless you have a Trotz, Ruff or Hitch at the helm anyway. - Ryan Ma Sun, 27 May 2012 12:11:45 +0100 http://hockey.dobbersports.com/index.php/home-mainmenu-1/24-rambling/4647-may-27-2012#comment-21000 @Nate: the Devils will barely be able to afford Parise, let alone Suter. As much as this long playoff run helps them- there are lawsuits/infighting amongst the owner/county and even if they have the capspace- they may not be able to spend money they dont have on hand. We could soon be talking about the Devils like we are the Coyotes now. One downside of the Kings winning it all: this may solidify Bettmans stance that the Yotes HAVE to stay in Phoenix. Lets face it, if Bettman wasnt so opposed to them moving- and most likely to a more established hockey market, they wouldve moved years ago. Bettmans big plan revolves solely around a big tv contract, and for that you need big US markets playing. But hes been trying for that for over a decade- with almost zero progress. The NHL would be much better off financially if they moved Phoenix to a hockey market and fixing the Jersey and Long Island situations. Hamilton/GTA, Seattle,Quebec,Kansas are all legitimate upgrades over the 3 major franchises in trouble (once arenas are constructed). Vegas would be nothing more than Phoenix v2.0- it wont work. - Rollie1967 Sun, 27 May 2012 10:40:33 +0100 http://hockey.dobbersports.com/index.php/home-mainmenu-1/24-rambling/4647-may-27-2012#comment-20999 Im a transplant to Phoenix, from st Louis. This is a fair weather town and most people are from everywhere else. They thought with people moving here or "snow birds" from cold weather states and Canada, that they would go to hockey games. This town is all about the Suns, they were the only team in town for almost 30 years. They built this "sports complex" in Glendale to be the sports home for football, hockey, and spring training baseball. Football works since its one day a week. Spring training works, since those fans are in town from Chicago and LA. But hockey won't work. For the bulk of the population that would pay to,go to the games. It's a hour home from work. Then another hour to the game, not to mention its 50 plus miles one way. The land to build it in Scottsdale, where it's easy access, was donated, but Glendale tried to be big shots and paid the Money to build it, so they went there. The other thing as a fan. If every season you want to buy tickets, but you know at season end they are moving for three years in a row. Why in the world would you plop down money to buy them. Hockey takes money and a emotional investment, but if they are on the move, why bother. I'm sure this same thing would happen in Canada. Even with new owners, this is a sinking ship, for the sake of the players and the NHL as a whole, it needs to move to a new city. - tonyld15 Sun, 27 May 2012 06:00:24 +0100 http://hockey.dobbersports.com/index.php/home-mainmenu-1/24-rambling/4647-may-27-2012#comment-20998 A side not on the coyotes, Its cheaper for Vancouver fans to fly to Phoenix to watch the Canucks, you can get a 20 dollar ticket plus they give you a beer and a hot dog. - hawkdog Sun, 27 May 2012 05:40:03 +0100 http://hockey.dobbersports.com/index.php/home-mainmenu-1/24-rambling/4647-may-27-2012#comment-20997 No mention that Chris Bourque will now be with the organization that retired his father's number. - jer_33 Sun, 27 May 2012 05:26:15 +0100 http://hockey.dobbersports.com/index.php/home-mainmenu-1/24-rambling/4647-may-27-2012#comment-20996 "Feel good story of the year, undrafted Phoenix prospect, [b]Brendan Shinnimin[/b] was named CHL’s player of the year. He was passed over by all 30 NHL teams, as well all of the major junior hockey teams at his bantam draft, but has finally been rewarded for all of his perseverance and hard work." Does he have a shot at the NHL in a year or two? Upside?? - Excelsior Sun, 27 May 2012 03:41:19 +0100 http://hockey.dobbersports.com/index.php/home-mainmenu-1/24-rambling/4647-may-27-2012#comment-20995 thanks for the article. As a die hard born in Manhattan Rangers fan I can tell you that the fan base is split. About half want NY to make a free agent splash or a trade, while the other half want to continue the plan that has brought so much success. Count me in the continue the plan, develop the kids which has NOT been a priority for the NYR over the seasons. I think NY bring back Prust and Fedotenko as they are Tortorella guys, perhaps Stralman too although alot hinges on Sauer returning to form. It didn't get much press but NY really missed Sauers strength down low and in the crease. NY was forced to skate a short bench and it wound up costing them the series against the devils. One almost felt sorry for Stu Bickel stapled to the bench. And finally a comment on Columbus. I keep hearing things about how the Blue Jackets are going to build through the draft this year. Haven't they been doing that since their inception ? Columbus needs more veteran leadership who hates to lose and can show the younger players an attitude of winning and hating to lose. I don't think Cbus has done a good job of developing most of their younger players either so draft picks doesn't really look like the right answer for that franchise. That team needs a few Shane Doans, Vinny Prospals, Kevin Bieksas plus Steve Ott and Steve Downie. The team would not roll over that much is for sure. - donpaulo Sun, 27 May 2012 02:37:58 +0100 http://hockey.dobbersports.com/index.php/home-mainmenu-1/24-rambling/4647-may-27-2012#comment-20994 Yeah I just think what a stupid situation this is... It was stupid of the NHL to expand into Phoenix in the first place without a plan of creating hype or developing fan base. They took the lazy way and thought if we brought the game to people, they will show up... Well tough lesson learned... However they could fix the problem very easily if they relocate to a hockey hot-bed or at least a fresh market with [b]NO NBA COMPETITION[/b]. But instead they have to continually prop up the Coyotes because the council wants them to stay in Phoenix or their multi-billion dollar investment in the "Westgate" district goes bust... The question is when is enough, enough? I mean the team itself is worth only $134 mil, but they're losing at a rate of $24 mil a season, so if my maths is correct, they'll last not even 6 years. If I were a resident of the Glendale, I think I would be very peed off that they're using tax payers money to prop up a team that no one even cares about... The revenue sharing should be going to smart market teams to help them spend up to the cap so they can compete with the Leafs, Rangers and Caps... not to keep a dying franchise afloat... You move them to Quebec, and suddenly a team that goes from $20mil in debt, could easily be like the Jets and actually generate money and hype for the NHL... The Coyotes were very very lucky to go as far into the playoffs as they did this season, it saved their bacon for this season. I tell you if they end up like the Jackets and have a losing season, you can essentially kiss their franchise goodbye. Fans are struggling to support a winning franchise, what's gonna happen if they start losing... Keep in mind he's been planted in a tough situation too. I mean even the toughest of plants won't grow if the soil that it's planted is bad... I think if he does go to a more structured system he does have game-breaking potential. It's just not as apparent in Clb than it would be if he was in another uniform. If he is moved I'd expect him to certainly step it up offensively. - Ryan Ma Sun, 27 May 2012 01:31:17 +0100 http://hockey.dobbersports.com/index.php/home-mainmenu-1/24-rambling/4647-may-27-2012#comment-20993 Great write up on the phoenix situation Ryan. Did this council women touch a nerve by any chance ;D If she was on my council I would tell her to shut the hell up. You don't go upsetting potential investors in a loss making company by calling them 'poachers', which business school did she go to?? When I read the piece on Nash I wasn't sure if you were being sarcastic when you called him "...an offensive dynamo game breaker"? He is the go to guy in CMB but his best season is 79 points, every other season he is in the 50's or 60's, I wouldn't quite go as far an offensive dynamo. I do concede your point that if he went to NY it would be interesting if he is re-energised by Tort's hard nosed style or it goes against the lazy ass time he has got used to? - UKflames Sat, 26 May 2012 23:47:40 +0100