Comments for Top 10 Keeper League Goaltenders at http://hockey.dobbersports.com , comment 1 to 17 out of 17 comments http://hockey.dobbersports.com Thu, 20 Jun 2013 02:05:22 +0100 FeedCreator 1.7.3 http://hockey.dobbersports.com/index.php/jeff-angus/3848-top-10-keeper-league-goaltenders#comment-15481 I have to disagree with your arguments on Luongo, James. As was said, all goalies have some flaws and you're pointing out flaws on him at the expense of his talents. He is one the most positionally and technically sound goalies of his generation. No, he was never known for his reflexes, his improvisation or his scramble ability (could explain his weak glove, and trouble absorbing high pucks), but your argument he's not elite holds no weight. If you want to point out very specific things about him, point out the good and bad. There is a LOT of good about him, even more with Rollie coaching him now. If you want to even approach the argument that he's not elite, the only place you can start and end is in his head, like Angus said. Saying a poor offensive team like NAS used a game plan of 'shoot pucks at him from all angles' is inane. So you're telling me that Trotz recognized that his team (which had trouble scoring at the best of times), would struggle against an elite goalie and elite D, so he told them to put pucks on net at every chance they got? Doesn't really scream "Lou's not elite", more like "This team's better than us, so we're gonna have to get a lucky one. The way to do that is throw pucks at the net" (I realize it was CBC that kept bringing this up during the playoffs over and over - don't worry, I complained about it then too). Finally, we all saw Luongo fall apart a few times during the playoffs, but he also had some amazing games that he stole (finals included). All goalies struggle once in awhile, as do the defenses in front of them. For another example of such struggle, look at Thomas' ECF stats against the Lightning. He was lit up in more than one of those games and looked horrible. He also stole some games, and had a SO in gm 7 (15 GA's in the losses, another 5 GA game in a win, 2 SO's and a 1 GA win). No one is ever going to argue he isn't an elite goalie, especially since he got over that, mentally, and went onto one of the greatest finals performances ever. This just enforces the argument that Lou's problem is in his head - he can't fight through those struggles (that every goalie has) very well, which affects his team's confidence and becomes a vicious circle. His talents are all-world, he just needs to breaks through this mental wall (which I think he can), and all of this talk will go the way of TT's 09-10 season and even this year's ECF. - Craig K Mon, 25 Jul 2011 12:41:56 +0100 http://hockey.dobbersports.com/index.php/jeff-angus/3848-top-10-keeper-league-goaltenders#comment-15476 I shouldn't butt my nose into a great discussion here but I can't help myself lol. The question, who would you pick if you wanted to win in the next 3 years? That's the ONLY question that matters. Not who did what in the play-offs(unless you're in Dobber's pool of course) or who is liked or not liked or who has deteriorated over the last couple years. Personally I don't trust any tender over 35 with this criteria. For every Thomas or Roloson that comes along there are 10 Khabibulin's. At age 35 with a 3 year window it would be to risky imo to take any tender 35 or older. Goalie #1: Last 3 years- 34 wins, 2.59 GAA, 91.6 SV% 41 wins, 2.22 GAA, 92.9 SV% 34 wins, 2.53 GAA, 91.8 SV% Average- 36 wins, 2.44 GAA, 92.1 SV% Goalie #2: Last 3 years- 33 wins, 2.12 GAA, 93.0 SV% 32 wins, 2.53 GAA, 91.1 SV% 29 wins, 2.38 GAA, 91.7 SV% Average- 31 wins, 2.34 GAA, 91.9 SV% Goalie #3: Last 3 years- 38 wins, 2.11 GAA, 92.8 SV% 40 wins, 2.57 GAA, 91.3 SV% 33 wins, 2.34 GAA, 92.0 SV% Average- 37 wins, 2.34 GAA, 92.0 SV% Goalie #4: Last 3 years- 36 wins, 2.28 GAA, 92.3 SV% 35 wins, 2.38 GAA, 92.1 SV% 38 wins, 2.43 GAA, 91.6 SV% Average- 36 wins, 2.36 GAA, 92.0 SV% Goalie #5: Last 3 years- 36 wins, 2.48 GAA, 92.1 SV% 42 wins, 2.29 GAA, 92.0 SV% 26 wins, 2.98 GAA, 90.6 SV% Average- 34 wins, 2.58 GAA, 91.5 SV% Goalie #6: Last 3 years- 37 wins, 2.63 GAA, 90.6 SV% 35 wins, 2.31 GAA, 92.0 SV% 45 wins, 2.84 GAA, 90.3 SV% Average- 39 wins, 2.59 GAA, 90.9 SV% So there is your statistics, you're up in the draft and decide on a tender and they're all available, who do you take? #1- 36 wins, 2.44 GAA, 92.1 SV% #2- 31 wins, 2.34 GAA, 91.9 SV% #3- 37 wins, 2.34 GAA, 92.0 SV% #4- 36 wins, 2.36 GAA, 92.0 SV% #5- 34 wins, 2.58 GAA, 91.5 SV% #6- 39 wins, 2.59 GAA, 90.9 SV% All of them would be decent but of course it depends a lot on the cats used in each individual pool. Here are the goaltenders used. #1- miller #2- rinne #3- luongo #4- lundqvist #5- bryzgalov #6- kiprusoff - Hek Mon, 25 Jul 2011 08:05:19 +0100 http://hockey.dobbersports.com/index.php/jeff-angus/3848-top-10-keeper-league-goaltenders#comment-15469 James, I agree and disagree with you at the same time. Luongo is no longer the goalie he was. He is slower (due to style change?) and his glove hand makes Edwin Encaracion's look good. But he's still a top five goalie (just maybe not a top 2 or 3). You are bang on with your comments regarding Chicago - they had him figured out. The biggest weakness in his game is between his ears. He overthinks things and needs to rely more on his pure goaltending ability. Some in the Canuck organization share your concern regarding him, as well. I think that is why we will see Schneider stick around for at least one more year. - Jeff Angus Sun, 24 Jul 2011 18:32:50 +0100 http://hockey.dobbersports.com/index.php/jeff-angus/3848-top-10-keeper-league-goaltenders#comment-15467 Angus - obviously all goalies give up rebound goals. You know that's not what I'm arguing against. I'm arguing that Luongo gives up more rebound goals relative to other goalies. He doesn't steer low pucks to safer areas or absorb pucks up high as well as other goalies. If you have the time, just review the tapes of Luongo this past year and compare him in this specific area to the better goalies in the league. In fact, all you need to do is compare him to Schneider. There's a noticeable difference. There's also a reason why in the 2009-10 playoffs Chicago's coaching staff (as reported by Versus) specifically instructed their players to shoot the puck low on Luongo as often as they could, look for him to kick out those rebounds into the middle, and then pounce on them. Not sure if they continued that game plan this past post-season. They obviously saw his rebound control down low as a critical weakness. There's also a reason why Nashville's game plan a/g the Canucks this post-season (as reported by CBC) was to shoot the puck often and from everywhere against Luongo. You may have a point that Luongo's mistakes get more coverage b/c of the market he plays in, but I know this and my comments are based on having NHL center ice and having watched a ton of out-of-market games and goalies of other teams. His rebound control is a weakness. In general, his skills in the areas I mentioned (glove hand, agility, rebound control) have deteriorated the past couple of years. Watch the tapes from 3-4 years ago. There has not been a corresponding drop in his stats only because the team in front of him and his defensive support has conversely improved a lot since he first joined the Canucks. Your point about "Vancouver's defense was exposed after a few injuries and bumps and bruises from the more physical Bruins" only reinforces my argument above. Without as great a defense in front of him in the finals (due to injuries), Luongo got exposed. Do you remember how this guy played in his first year with the Canucks? That Luongo stole games for the Canucks when their defense wasn't up to par. This Luongo gets shellacked in blowout games almost without fail if the D has an off-game. We really need to adjust our opinions about Lu. Stop thinking about him as the same goalie he once was. Mr Sausage - yes and I agree Luongo is one of the best "fantasy" goalies out there. - James Smith Sun, 24 Jul 2011 18:02:56 +0100 http://hockey.dobbersports.com/index.php/jeff-angus/3848-top-10-keeper-league-goaltenders#comment-15466 It's like Semin Washington - people look at his playoff failures and adjust their fantasy rankings. Playoff success/failure has little to do with fantasy hockey success/failure. This doesn't really address your point, but it's one I wanted to make. Regarding Luongo - he's simply become a polarizing figure in Vancouver. He makes a ton of money. He is on a team where he doesn't need to win them games. Vancouver's defense was exposed after a few injuries and bumps and bruises from the more physical Bruins. It is also a case of "the grass is greener." Sure, some of the goals he let in were rebounds. Name me one goalie in NHL history who didn't allow rebounds for goals? Because Luongo is in the spotlight so much, more gets made of his mistakes. And because he is a bit of an introvert and not the most likable guy in his interviews, not much gets made of his successes, either. Not making excuses for him, that is just how it is. Mr Sausage - Price isn't #2 because of his one good season. He's number 2 because he's been a winner and an elite tender at every level. WHL/AHL, etc. His mental toughness (on display last season from day 1) is a huge reason why I like him so much. - Jeff Angus Sun, 24 Jul 2011 16:07:23 +0100 http://hockey.dobbersports.com/index.php/jeff-angus/3848-top-10-keeper-league-goaltenders#comment-15465 Remember James..This is [b]KEEPER LEAGUE[/b] for fantasy purposes. Not real life, so Luongos playoff failures have nothing to do with this list. So Luongo is where he should be imo. Actually that is not true. I think Price is way to high on this list just because of his one good season and his "pedigree". I'd bump him down to at least 5 and move all of the other top 5's up one. I would even put Rinne ahead of Miller...but that's splitting hairs here. Good list Angus and I think you are right in saying Hiller would be on the list if he was healthy. - Mr Sausage Sun, 24 Jul 2011 15:25:29 +0100 http://hockey.dobbersports.com/index.php/jeff-angus/3848-top-10-keeper-league-goaltenders#comment-15464 Angus, I don't know how you can actually watch this guy play live and think he is one of the best in the league. No goalie as inconsistent as Luongo is and who repeatedly flounders in the playoffs as much as he does should be considered an "elite" goalie. This is not a case of one bad year. It's three playoff flops in a row now. Three straight playoffs in which he's punched in one too many awful games. If not last year playing in front of a deep and stacked President's trophy winning team, then when? How great of a team does Luongo need to actually win it all? Does the team have to be as stacked as the Canadian Olympic team for it to finally happen for him? If that's what it takes, then what is it about Luongo that makes him better than say Niemi or Osgood? You and I both know a goalie's stats can be aided by the team and defense in front of him. Luongo used to be an elite goalie, but so many areas of his game have slipped over the last couple of years. His stats are now propped up somewhat by playing in front of a great team. Do you not notice how much weaker his glove hand has become? How much slower and less agile he's become? How much his rebound control has regressed over the last couple of years? Just watch the highlights of some of the goals he gave up this postseason. Big fat rebounds right into juicy areas. I have no disagreement with you placing him 3rd on your list and I totally think he's an "elite fantasy" goalie. However, there are several goalies I'd rather have on my "real life" team than Luongo. It's time for a market correction in terms of people's opinion about the real-life Luongo. Otherwise, we're doomed to continue suffering big letdowns post-season after post-season b/c we unjustly expect more out of Luongo than he is capable of delivering. - James Smith Sun, 24 Jul 2011 15:01:37 +0100 http://hockey.dobbersports.com/index.php/jeff-angus/3848-top-10-keeper-league-goaltenders#comment-15463 Constantly amazed at the fellas who can't differentiate between real-life and fantasy. Yes, Luongo is not viewed favourably in Vancouver. But the past five years, fantasy-wise, he's been gold. His worst year had 33 wins (and he missed a big chunk of that season due to injury) and his best is 47 wins. He gets shutouts. He has a low GAA. He has a decent save percentage. He's 32 years old, playing on the best regular-season team in the NHL (Presidents Trophy last season), and the Canucks should be very good for the next 3,4 years. Don't let your real-life biases get in the way of your fantasy-life choices. Luongo is fantasy gold. Real life, of course, might be a different story. Great list, again, Jeff. - Ian Sun, 24 Jul 2011 14:18:51 +0100 http://hockey.dobbersports.com/index.php/jeff-angus/3848-top-10-keeper-league-goaltenders#comment-15461 I don't see how you can look at his stats and come to a conclusion that doesn't have him among the best goalies in the league. - Jeff Angus Sun, 24 Jul 2011 13:39:42 +0100 http://hockey.dobbersports.com/index.php/jeff-angus/3848-top-10-keeper-league-goaltenders#comment-15459 Angus, there are some like yourself who consider Luongo one of the best. There are many, however, who don't. - James Smith Sun, 24 Jul 2011 13:17:37 +0100 http://hockey.dobbersports.com/index.php/jeff-angus/3848-top-10-keeper-league-goaltenders#comment-15457 As I said, there could be a dozen more honorable mentions. Every list I get this. Niemi, Crawford, Howard, could be there. Personally, not sold on Niemi. Had a great stretch of a few months last season, sure. Was one of the best in the league. However, I like 10 goalies more. James - Luongo is regarded as one of the best goaltenders in the world. Playoff meltdown(s) aside, he is in that upper echelon, both on the ice and in fantasy pools. - Jeff Angus Sun, 24 Jul 2011 12:50:21 +0100 http://hockey.dobbersports.com/index.php/jeff-angus/3848-top-10-keeper-league-goaltenders#comment-15456 No mention of Niemi at all? Long term contract, little competition, great team, perfect situation. Deserves at least an HM, and could easily be in the 7-10 spots, in fact I would bump Ward out for him. - Molson Sun, 24 Jul 2011 12:42:11 +0100 http://hockey.dobbersports.com/index.php/jeff-angus/3848-top-10-keeper-league-goaltenders#comment-15455 mmm...Niemi has a 4 year contract with a great team and little competition. Didn't Crawford just extend with the Hawks? Prefer them to Thomas(age + Rusk) and maybe to Quick who is faced with Bernier. - dave k. Sun, 24 Jul 2011 12:41:07 +0100 http://hockey.dobbersports.com/index.php/jeff-angus/3848-top-10-keeper-league-goaltenders#comment-15454 Luongo is not an "elite" goaltender. Is he an "elite" fantasy goaltender? Absolutely. He's the #1 goalie on one of the best teams in the league. There is a critical distinction here. - James Smith Sun, 24 Jul 2011 12:27:49 +0100 http://hockey.dobbersports.com/index.php/jeff-angus/3848-top-10-keeper-league-goaltenders#comment-15453 Very solid list, good picks! - Pengwin7 Sun, 24 Jul 2011 11:56:10 +0100 http://hockey.dobbersports.com/index.php/jeff-angus/3848-top-10-keeper-league-goaltenders#comment-15452 Great work, Jeff! - GMGates Sun, 24 Jul 2011 11:21:32 +0100 http://hockey.dobbersports.com/index.php/jeff-angus/3848-top-10-keeper-league-goaltenders#comment-15449 I am trying preatty hard to find flaws in this list but i am not finding any...VERY well done. The only thing i would do is move Luongo down to 5 and move both Miller and Rinne up a spot. Oh, and add Jack Campbell :) - CHR Sun, 24 Jul 2011 10:34:18 +0100