Comments for Sam Gagner vs. Derrick Brassard at http://hockey.dobbersports.com , comment 1 to 11 out of 11 comments http://hockey.dobbersports.com Mon, 20 May 2013 01:49:17 +0100 FeedCreator 1.7.3 http://hockey.dobbersports.com/index.php/columnistsarticles-mainmenu-77/laidlaw/3733-sam-gagner-vs-derrick-brassard#comment-14787 Your argument about the last 20 games being meaningless is completely [i]backwards[/i]. Teams in playoff contention are highly [i]unlikely[/i] to rest players. The only notable exception is among teams that have already clinched a home-ad. That certainly wouldn't apply over a stretch as long as 20-30 games. Particularly in the Western Conference, where the playoff race has been extremely tight every year since the lockout, very few games are EVER a night off towards the end of the season. This was even more the case in the 07-08 & 08-09 Northwest Division, where 4 teams competed for playoff spots in each of those seasons, and also included the 9th seeded team in each of those seasons. [i]AND[/i], the 9th seeded team [i]WAS[/i] the Oilers in 07-08. Over the last two years, when the Oilers have been the last seeded team in the conference, it makes sense that minor injuries to younger players (like Gagner) would warrant a rest over the last 20 games. And, in 09-10 and 10-11, the Oilers' games have been 'nights off' for better teams. However, neither of those are examples of his late-season production. In both cases, when Gagner put up big numbers, his team was within earshot of a playoff spot, and certainly didn't qualify as a 'night off'. If anybody's argument "doesn't coincide with the on-ice product", it's yours. - Jeff Wed, 22 Jun 2011 18:51:50 +0100 http://hockey.dobbersports.com/index.php/columnistsarticles-mainmenu-77/laidlaw/3733-sam-gagner-vs-derrick-brassard#comment-14696 Jeff - I've heard some of your arguments before and the problem is they don't seem to coincide with the on ice product. You are correct that Gagner has shown flashes of brilliance but the problem is that those flashes were two years ago and he has since stagnated. With flashes like that they need to be building towards something otherwise it's wasted momentum and it starts looking more like he's going to be a streaky player if a good one at all. Sometimes (like Stamkos for instance) an end of year run can signify the coming of a big year or that the player is ready to take the next step. Other times, and as happened with Gagner, it's nothing more than a flash. You also can't look too much into an end of year run because that's when teams start to rest players. In the past few years that has meant Edmonton is a night off on the calendar. For Gagner to play well in garbage games does exactly tell you much about his future production. He also doesn't get a free pass for missing games at the end of the season. He's yet to play a full one as a pro. If anything his missed games and general demeanor remind me of a lesser talented Spezza. You mentioned a lot of good players and compared his career numbers to theirs. The problem I see with that is that Gagner has clearly been rushed. We all knew he was getting pushed too hard when the Oilers kept him on as an 18-year-old and now our fears have been validated by his stagnation. He may have better career numbers than a lot of those players but Gagner was not developed properly and thus will fall behind. In fantasy brief greatness will always trump extended mediocrity. Gagner has shown and is destined for extended mediocrity. That's a bus I'd rather get off of. Now you'll note I never took anything away from the potential either Brassard or Gagner still has. I still think it's there that at some point they could be very good second line centers (75 point upside). My point was that the potential on both has been overblown (which is something you agree with) so waiting for them to breakout is really a waste of time. Waiting until they are 30 for some sort of Patrick Sharp-like breakout season would be painful to hang on for. I truly believe Gagner needs to be moved to ever hope he can become a consistent threat and that could be more than a few years away. Brassard on the other hand may not need a move. He's showing flashes of improving right now. I don't want to wait for either one of these guys but Brassard is more prepared and thus if I'm taking one of them I'm taking the one who will produce for me sooner and that definitely feels like Brassard. If you want to wait on the upside then your argument has logic. I just don't have that kind of patience. - steve laidlaw Thu, 16 Jun 2011 17:24:00 +0100 http://hockey.dobbersports.com/index.php/columnistsarticles-mainmenu-77/laidlaw/3733-sam-gagner-vs-derrick-brassard#comment-14695 Ian - In retrospect your dealings look very good but context is everything. At the time I'd say you took a serious risk moving players with a lot of potential for a guy with multiple concussion issues. Had you stuck with Savard this would have been bad. Ultimately you turned him into Streit and a pick upgrade so overall you did quite well, even with the retrospect of knowing Streit missed a whole season. Having Hartnell is probably a nice bonus as well. JW - Thanks man! I know things got heated in the comments section last week because I will always defend my piece but I also take criticisms to heart and I felt like I learned a lot from last week's comments and applied them here. Ev - I agree and that's something I certainly alluded to in the article. - steve laidlaw Thu, 16 Jun 2011 16:51:15 +0100 http://hockey.dobbersports.com/index.php/columnistsarticles-mainmenu-77/laidlaw/3733-sam-gagner-vs-derrick-brassard#comment-14694 Thanks Steve, it does help. - horrorfan Thu, 16 Jun 2011 12:02:52 +0100 http://hockey.dobbersports.com/index.php/columnistsarticles-mainmenu-77/laidlaw/3733-sam-gagner-vs-derrick-brassard#comment-14693 Personally, I think you've overlooked some flashes of greatness on the part of Gagner. He finished his Rookie and Sophomore years in style. He had 28 points in his last 30 games and 21 in 20, respectively. The last two years, he's missed that bread-and-butter stretch and still put up respectable points per game. Brassard's only managed a stretch like that once in his career, and it ended with a shoulder ijury, 30 games into the season. This comparison makes me think that Gagner has a better chance of reaching his upside; he's shown more consistently that he's capable of p/g play. I would also like to note that only one player in Gagner's draft class ('07) has more NHL games or points, and that's Pat Kane. Brassard, on the other hand, has been outpointed by a number of his classmates: Toews, Backstrom, Kessel, Staal, Stewart, Giroux, Frolik, Okposo & Berglund. Thus, comparing with players in the same age category, Gagner is the favorite again. Clearly, Brassard is in the stronger draft class, but within Brassard's draft class, Gagner beats all but the top 4 in career points. Finally, I think the expectations that people have of Gagner are patetnly absurd and unfounded. Your cage match cites Mikko Koivu as the last 'great' 6th overall pick; Gagner is 21 entering his 5th season. At 21, Mikko Koivu hadn't yet played an NHL game. I don't know how well Gagner will play when he's 23, but I will guarantee that he FAR eclipses Mikko's rookie total of 21pts/64gp. Brassard might beat Mikko's 23, or he could band-aid himself into oblivion. In sum, I'd say this cage match is a definitive K.O. in favor of the unfairly underrated & undervalued Sam Gagner - Jeff Thu, 16 Jun 2011 11:11:56 +0100 http://hockey.dobbersports.com/index.php/columnistsarticles-mainmenu-77/laidlaw/3733-sam-gagner-vs-derrick-brassard#comment-14683 It's not that the 6th pick is cursed, it's that the teams are not making the right pick and not developing their picks properly. Gagner was rushed. - Big Ev Thu, 16 Jun 2011 08:01:33 +0100 http://hockey.dobbersports.com/index.php/columnistsarticles-mainmenu-77/laidlaw/3733-sam-gagner-vs-derrick-brassard#comment-14677 Great article! Each piece you write gets better and better. I love the passion you write with and also how you inject humor when appropriate. This piece really hits the mark in every way for me because you didn't base it solely on the numbers; you used the numbers to support your own thoughts and observations. That's the way to do it! Keep up the great work. - maya has the knife - JW Thu, 16 Jun 2011 06:34:23 +0100 http://hockey.dobbersports.com/index.php/columnistsarticles-mainmenu-77/laidlaw/3733-sam-gagner-vs-derrick-brassard#comment-14667 What do you think of this trade i made in the 2010 offseason - Dan Ellis, Paul Martin, Brassard, Gagner FOR Hartnell, Savard. I then traded Savard, 13th rounder FOR Streit, 4rth rounder (right before Streit got injured for the year). We keep 10. - Ian NM Thu, 16 Jun 2011 03:01:53 +0100 http://hockey.dobbersports.com/index.php/columnistsarticles-mainmenu-77/laidlaw/3733-sam-gagner-vs-derrick-brassard#comment-14657 One of the great things about Vermette (and why he ultimately wasn't mentioned in the article) is his chameleon-like way of slotting in the lineup. He can play both center or wing and can slot in on the second powerplay unit and the penalty kill. That said, there was clearly a hierarchy on the Jackets this year and that went Brassard = C1, Vermette = C2. Brassard's presence won't directly impact Vermette but Johansen's might. We may see more of Vermette floating about the lineup picking up minutes or we may see him slot into a more traditional defensive centerman role as C3 with Brassard and Johansen duking it out for C1 and C2. That is at least how I see things, so hopefully that clears things up for you. - steve laidlaw Wed, 15 Jun 2011 15:37:29 +0100 http://hockey.dobbersports.com/index.php/columnistsarticles-mainmenu-77/laidlaw/3733-sam-gagner-vs-derrick-brassard#comment-14655 Just wondering on how Vermette will affect Brassard going forward (or vice versa), if at all? Thanks, good article. - horrorfan Wed, 15 Jun 2011 13:19:59 +0100 http://hockey.dobbersports.com/index.php/columnistsarticles-mainmenu-77/laidlaw/3733-sam-gagner-vs-derrick-brassard#comment-14654 "Gagner does have chemistry with Hemsky but that only last as long as Hemsky does, which is about as long as a virgin with a supermodel" absolutely incredible! i appreciate the insight (as a Gagner owner) and that line not only made me laugh out loud but sigh at the same time. I hope he can pull his head out of his ass and figure his game out and get passed the 50 point mark. - Maximus Wed, 15 Jun 2011 12:59:48 +0100