Comments for Top 10 Keeper League Goaltenders at http://hockey.dobbersports.com , comment 1 to 24 out of 20 comments http://hockey.dobbersports.com Wed, 19 Jun 2013 12:39:21 +0100 FeedCreator 1.7.3 http://hockey.dobbersports.com/index.php/jeff-angus/3037-top-10-keeper-league-goaltenders#comment-7679 Thanks for the post, Mabus! Steve Mason, outside of a six week stretch in November/December 2008, has not been a good goalie at the NHL level. Great talent, but he was criticized a bit for a poor work ethic. I have said many times that young goalies are tough to rely on because of the volatility of the position, and Mason is a great example of it. Some goalies (Rask, in my opinion), will rise above it. But the Tim Thomas issue is definitely a bit concerning. - angus Sun, 15 Aug 2010 07:06:51 +0100 http://hockey.dobbersports.com/index.php/jeff-angus/3037-top-10-keeper-league-goaltenders#comment-7677 I would like to see something similar to the upsides you've listed in your ranking in Dobber's Fantasy Guide. I emailed Dobber about it about a month ago, but it likely got lost in the mayhem that I imagine occurs during the writing period of the Guide ;) Overall, Good List. This is why we come to this site: to get oppinions. I personally would've put Ward in the top 10 over Kipper or maybe Price. As people have said, proven talent over potention. That being said, I would also drop Rask down a few places. Remember this time last year when every fantasy GM was blowing their load (for lack of a better term) over another Rookie goalie that had exceeded expectations? What was his name again? Do people really expect Rask to do that much better next season than Mason did with NO competition last year? Sure, Hitchcock played a part in his rookie numbers, but this was a guy that was on most people's top 5 keeper goalie lists last year, and isn't even an honourable mention on here! - steve-o Sat, 14 Aug 2010 18:34:04 +0100 http://hockey.dobbersports.com/index.php/jeff-angus/3037-top-10-keeper-league-goaltenders#comment-7676 I didn't think there was a standard keeper league setting, so thanks for clarifying your assumptions. I can't say I'm a fan of those categories - shutouts falls into the game winning goal and PIM category for me as stats I'm not a fan of. Based on those settings though, your list is solid. I'd like to know if you forgot about Howard or if you just don't like him. I'll take up the challenge though and post a list that's similar to yours with justification for a couple of tweaks. For my analysis, I'll assume we are talking about a 12 team league with 2 goalies per team. I've calculated values by assuming all categories are weighted equally and created standard scores (subtract the average player's stats from each player's stats and divide by the standard deviation). Based on last year's stats, that gives us Brodeur, Bryzgalov, Miller, Rask, Howard, Nabokov, Kiprusoff, Lundqvist, Anderson, Niemi, Halak, Vokoun, Rinne, Luongo, Quick as the top 15 so we can start from a reference point. I think with goalies, organizing people into tiers is more valuable than a strict list, but given the challenge to provide a list, I'll do it. I'm not in a league with these type of settings, so this ranking isn't well researched, but here it goes (and the reasons below). Miller, Rask, Luongo, Lundqvist, Halak, Bryzgalov, Vokoun, Brodeur, Howard, Kiprusoff. I would bump Rask up the list to #2 because of his age, the fact he already has elite skill, the fact he's playing in front of Chara and a team that looks like it will be solid for quite a few years plus the fact that he managed to be the 4th best goalie last year in only 45 starts. To be honest, I wouldn't see a problem with choosing him first. I move Miller above Lundqvist/Luongo because he was better last year and I expect Buffalo to improve - he's also at the age where goalies are in their prime. For the same reason I bump up Bryzgalov. After the top 6, there is a dropoff in talent, and I'm probably as happy with the honorable mentions as I am with #7, so I probably wait. Brodeur will probably win you this year if you take him 8th, but I'm not sure if he has more than 1 or 2 years left in him. Kipper's starts will be limited, so his peripherals will be as good or better than last year, but his wins and shutouts won't be at the elite level anymore. Howard is a classic risk/reward guy. Great team, great stats, young age but not a long track record. In addition to your bubble guys, I'd add Anderson (team will be improved, but I'm not convinced he has elite skill) and possibly Quick (although Bernier lurking in the wings scares me). I'm sure you can see all of my anti-Price posts from last off-season and throughout the year, and my opinion of him hasn't changed. I don't like his attitude or work ethic. You can get by on natural talent in juniors, but not in the NHL, so he's on my avoid at all costs list. If he changes his work ethic, the sky is the limit, so I'll keep my eyes on him though. Mabus - Mabus Sat, 14 Aug 2010 14:48:33 +0100 http://hockey.dobbersports.com/index.php/jeff-angus/3037-top-10-keeper-league-goaltenders#comment-7674 I appreciate the feedback and critiquing. The point of these lists is to open the floor up. I just didn't really think odd was the appropriate word. What would your top 10 list look like? MAF - I simply don't think he's a top 10 goalie. Incredibly inconsistent. Wins games but doesn't do much else (great in real life, not in fantasy hockey). If Price sucks it up over the next few years, I'll eat crow. As will Dobber. I'm not trying to write these lists based on the consensus top 10 goalies. This is MY top 10 goalies. If I own Rinne, Hiller, Markstrom, Bernier, etc, I'd love any one of them for Price in a second. The only goalie I really struggled with on this list was Kipper, but I still think he is too elite to leave off. - angus Sat, 14 Aug 2010 12:45:24 +0100 http://hockey.dobbersports.com/index.php/jeff-angus/3037-top-10-keeper-league-goaltenders#comment-7673 At least I don't feel I can accurately predict them. - angus Sat, 14 Aug 2010 12:41:27 +0100 http://hockey.dobbersports.com/index.php/jeff-angus/3037-top-10-keeper-league-goaltenders#comment-7672 I don't understand the point you are trying to make. What is the "usual" top list of goalies? I don't see any standard set of 10 out there. My criteria is defined. Standard keeper league categories. Wins, shutouts, save percentage, GAA. I didn't include projections for those other two stats, because I don't feel it is really possible to accurately predict them. - angus Sat, 14 Aug 2010 12:37:56 +0100 http://hockey.dobbersports.com/index.php/jeff-angus/3037-top-10-keeper-league-goaltenders#comment-7670 Poor choice on my part to quote webster on a hockey site. Won't happen again. - Mabus Sat, 14 Aug 2010 11:43:55 +0100 http://hockey.dobbersports.com/index.php/jeff-angus/3037-top-10-keeper-league-goaltenders#comment-7669 According to Mirriam-Webster: odd - differing markedly from the usual or ordinary or accepted : peculiar This is the first time this year I've seen a top ten list with Price on it. Rarely do you see a top 10 list with Fleury's name absent. I would also guess that you would see Ward and Rinne's names more often than Price's name. Regardless, it's hard to see how this list fits the terms typical, ordinary or accepted. For future lists, I don't think terms like "standard categories" are helpful. It would probably be helpful to define your criteria more clearly - it only takes one sentence, and this is the same comment you see in the forums every day - please clearly define your league settings. If wins/shutouts are the standard categories, Fleury's comments don't make sense to me. If peripherals are standard, it would be great to include them in the upside discussion. Provide your categories and it might be possible to provide a more analytical critique/validation. Mabus Mabus - Mabus Sat, 14 Aug 2010 11:27:40 +0100 http://hockey.dobbersports.com/index.php/jeff-angus/3037-top-10-keeper-league-goaltenders#comment-7666 How is this an "odd" list? It's my opinion! I think Calgary will be better than last year. Still not great, but better. The odds that all of their top players struggle at the same time are very low. Price really is a polarizing goalie. I have seen a lot of him (especially when he played in the WHL). He has that "star" quality. I still favour Halak, but disregarding that issue I'd take Price (quite easily) over the honourable mentions. Hiller - solid goalie. As I said, not a comprehensive list. Thanks for the feedback! I don't mind disagreements because lists are so subjective. I just wanted to give people a glimpse into how I rank goalies. As I have said before, if you can back your opinion up with some fact, all the power to you. - angus Sat, 14 Aug 2010 08:47:15 +0100 http://hockey.dobbersports.com/index.php/jeff-angus/3037-top-10-keeper-league-goaltenders#comment-7665 Odd list - not sure I agree with the rankings, but the talent level from 5th to 12th is probably as narrow as it's ever been. I'd never take Lundqvist or Luongo over Miller. I'm a flames fan, but Kipper's almost done as an elite goalie. The flames will be mediocre at best again this year, but Kipper's starts will drop. In a keeper league he shouldn't be the 8th goalie drafted. The name that surprises me most on the list though is Price. I can't imagine picking him ahead of at least 3 of the honorable mentions. Even though those would be my major changes, I just don't think you can create a goalie list this year without considerable disagreement about the order. That sets the grounds for someone getting a great goalie later than usual. Mabus - Mabus Sat, 14 Aug 2010 05:28:38 +0100 http://hockey.dobbersports.com/index.php/jeff-angus/3037-top-10-keeper-league-goaltenders#comment-7663 If you owned Price, would you really trade him straight up for Rinne? Come on. Rinne is great for the year ahead. But you never know one year to the next what NSH is doing in net. But there's gotta be a reason why the experts drool over Price. Sometimes faith in that fails, but usually the faith is well-placed. FYI my keeper league list includes playoff value, so that is the key reason why Fleury is higher on my list, lower on Angus'. - Dobber Sat, 14 Aug 2010 05:08:08 +0100 http://hockey.dobbersports.com/index.php/jeff-angus/3037-top-10-keeper-league-goaltenders#comment-7659 Well thought-out analysis, Adrian. :) - angus Fri, 13 Aug 2010 23:13:09 +0100 http://hockey.dobbersports.com/index.php/jeff-angus/3037-top-10-keeper-league-goaltenders#comment-7658 Awesome rankings, I like how you value goalies based on their stats and skills/talent instead of how good their situation is. A player like MAF gives you wins, but thats about it. And if for whatever reason he gets traded, then he wont even be able to get you wins. A talented guy like Vokoun will give you awesome GAA/SV% whoever he plays for. Talent overrides situation over the long haul every time. - Craigington Fri, 13 Aug 2010 22:04:57 +0100 http://hockey.dobbersports.com/index.php/jeff-angus/3037-top-10-keeper-league-goaltenders#comment-7657 RE: Vokoun He might be in FLA now, but I will guarantee that he won't be there post-deadline this season. Vokoun is a solid under-rated goalie. Career 2.56 GAA and .916 sv% numbers on teams that have ranked 27th, 15th, 26th, 21st, 20th, 10th, 17th, 26th, 24th, 29th, 30th, and 30th in terms of team defense throughout the years. If he can get onto a top-10 defensive team his numbers would be scary. I think Angus justified his comments very well and provided plenty of reasons... Only thing I would be wary of is the KHL threat, with so many teams struggling with the cap and the availability of cheap goalies he might price himself out of the NHL much like Nabby... - Ryan Ma Fri, 13 Aug 2010 20:30:26 +0100 http://hockey.dobbersports.com/index.php/jeff-angus/3037-top-10-keeper-league-goaltenders#comment-7655 This article has no basis in reality! A Florida Panther goalie at 6? Brain damage? - Adrian Keogh Fri, 13 Aug 2010 16:48:43 +0100 http://hockey.dobbersports.com/index.php/jeff-angus/3037-top-10-keeper-league-goaltenders#comment-7654 A Canuck number 1?????? - Adrian Keogh Fri, 13 Aug 2010 16:44:59 +0100 http://hockey.dobbersports.com/index.php/jeff-angus/3037-top-10-keeper-league-goaltenders#comment-7652 How about Jonas Hiller? No way that shouldnt be mentioned???? - SK Fri, 13 Aug 2010 14:44:21 +0100 http://hockey.dobbersports.com/index.php/jeff-angus/3037-top-10-keeper-league-goaltenders#comment-7651 I would never draft Rask #4 in a keeper league!! Tim Thomas has three years left to his contract! You mention that Anderson needs to prove last season wasn’t a fluke, well, Rask has to prove the same thing! Justin and Jeff say he has "no weaknesses and he is very mentally tough"... Tim Thomas won the Vezina two years ago and Steve Mason won the Calder trophy with 10 SHO. That's pretty much "no weaknesses" for me, but we saw that they didn't deliver the next year. You can't be super confident in doing a fantastic 3 years projections for Rask based on his 45 games of last year. There is 50% chance it happens. - Vincent Fri, 13 Aug 2010 12:41:32 +0100 http://hockey.dobbersports.com/index.php/jeff-angus/3037-top-10-keeper-league-goaltenders#comment-7648 Great article Angus. I may have put Rinne at number 10 instead of Price, but that would be more so due to Nashville's system, coach, and tendency to draft stud d-prospects in the early rounds. -cheers - steve Fri, 13 Aug 2010 08:29:55 +0100 http://hockey.dobbersports.com/index.php/jeff-angus/3037-top-10-keeper-league-goaltenders#comment-7647 Claudio: Pekka Rinne – great goalie, now firmly entrenched as the number one in Nashville. Can the Predators score enough for him to win games? Right in the article! - angus Fri, 13 Aug 2010 08:09:02 +0100