Comments for To PIM or not to PIM: Should We Count Penalty Minutes in Our Pools? at http://hockey.dobbersports.com , comment 1 to 13 out of 13 comments http://hockey.dobbersports.com Tue, 21 May 2013 09:58:37 +0100 FeedCreator 1.7.3 http://hockey.dobbersports.com/index.php/columnistsarticles-mainmenu-77/17-archives-other-articles/2794-to-pim-or-not-to-pim-should-we-count-penalty-minutes-in-our-pools#comment-6092 Hockey is about scoring. Whoever scores the most wins the game, not whoever gets the most penalties. My league has been around for over 20 years and we don't count PIM - never have, never will. However where I think most fantasy leagues are deficient is in not including SHP. The shortie is special and before computers (when we did this all by hand) we would count a shortie goal as 5 compared to 1 for a regular goal. Now we simply give it its own category. And unlike SOG, where you find that you're 150 points behind the guy in front, your SHP position can change quickly. - Richard J. DAngelo Mon, 17 May 2010 18:27:17 +0100 http://hockey.dobbersports.com/index.php/columnistsarticles-mainmenu-77/17-archives-other-articles/2794-to-pim-or-not-to-pim-should-we-count-penalty-minutes-in-our-pools#comment-6006 PIM's should never count in hockey pools...how is it a positive stat? - brad phillips Thu, 13 May 2010 13:27:25 +0100 http://hockey.dobbersports.com/index.php/columnistsarticles-mainmenu-77/17-archives-other-articles/2794-to-pim-or-not-to-pim-should-we-count-penalty-minutes-in-our-pools#comment-5990 just count hits and blocked shots too, those two combined should cover the "toughness" category - James Wed, 12 May 2010 17:29:10 +0100 http://hockey.dobbersports.com/index.php/columnistsarticles-mainmenu-77/17-archives-other-articles/2794-to-pim-or-not-to-pim-should-we-count-penalty-minutes-in-our-pools#comment-5989 Greetings Fellow Poolies, We have had a rotisserie style pool going since 1987 and I even remember having to do the stats by manual process, keeping 2 3" binders with all the players having their own pages, but that was then, and I thank IBM for the computer every time that we do the stats now. We have a 19 team keeper league and what we do with the PIM category is rank all the team PIM's from low to high and award the most points (19) to the team in the "sweet spot" position which would be the median. In a 19 team league this would be position #10. There would be 9 teams above and 9 teams below. We then peel away from this position and award 18 points to whoever is closer, either higher or lower then 17 points to the next closest and so on until all the teams have points awarded from 19 points to the team furthest away either high or low being awarded 1 point. I have tried describing this to Fantrax and I am hoping that they will implement it for the upcoming season. With this method you are rewarded for being tough, but not too tough and it does promote activity as well as trading. It does throw a bit of a wild card factor into the mix as well.The pansie teams will have to pick up some toughness to get into the sweet spot area. Just some thoughts from a long time commissioner who has made "The Alpha Hockey League" a labor of love. If you like this idea email Fantrax and it might help get it implemented because as it is now this part is being done manually and the stats are adjusted weekly - Vasilios Christopoulos Wed, 12 May 2010 16:46:11 +0100 http://hockey.dobbersports.com/index.php/columnistsarticles-mainmenu-77/17-archives-other-articles/2794-to-pim-or-not-to-pim-should-we-count-penalty-minutes-in-our-pools#comment-5986 good read.. great topic... i have tried to get rid of PIM in the leagues that i am in but to no avail.... why should someone get credit for a mcsorely baseball bat swing or a bertuzzi cheap shot??? but for some reason guys like having them..i would love it if yahoo would count them as a negative instead of a positive... last time i checked we try to run these teams like a real team... and i know i don't need a mcsorely on my team!!! - Greg Wed, 12 May 2010 14:17:23 +0100 http://hockey.dobbersports.com/index.php/columnistsarticles-mainmenu-77/17-archives-other-articles/2794-to-pim-or-not-to-pim-should-we-count-penalty-minutes-in-our-pools#comment-5981 If you're the GM of a real team, how would you feel if your team took a lot of stupid minor penalties? Would you be happy? No. My league counts penalties as a negative. It uses a PIM ratio and the lower your ratio the better. All players points count, but you designate one guy as your goon (guy on your active roster with most PIMs) and a Designated Hitter or DH (guy on your active roster with second-most PIMs) You add up all your other players' PIMs, then subtract your goon's total from that. Your DH's PIMs don't count at all. (Say it adds up to 300 PIMs Then, you add up the games played of everyone on your active roster and divide PIMs by games played. (300/1500 = .20). A PIM ratio like that would usually lead my league. Basically, if you have a guy who takes a bunch of stupid minors, he hurts you. You get one guy whose PIMs help you and one Mulligan (your DH) whose penalty minutes don't count. I like the way this works and this was one of the reasons I found the league so appealing when I joined in 2000. We've had this type of system in our league since it started in 96-97 and we've only made a few minor modifications. - Ryan Van Horne Wed, 12 May 2010 09:25:49 +0100 http://hockey.dobbersports.com/index.php/columnistsarticles-mainmenu-77/17-archives-other-articles/2794-to-pim-or-not-to-pim-should-we-count-penalty-minutes-in-our-pools#comment-5979 Whenever I see a problem, I try to find a way to blame it on the leafs. I'm sure back in the 80s, most Toronto fans listed Wendel Clark as their favorite player. I also heard the Cam Neely is a better hockey player than Mario Lemieux argument one too many times for my liking. Why did they like these guys, because they were tough. I'm guessing it drove them crazy that the guy they would call - the best - would be selected in the 5th round in fantasy so they changed the rules. Unfortunately, somehow we ended up with PIM, and until I hear definitively otherwise, I'm stating emphatically that this didn't come from those of us living out west or in the prairies. Where do we go from here - one step at a time we systematically remove PIMs as a positive stat. They used to represent "toughness" much like stolen bases represent "speed" for fantasy baseball. At the time, PIM was the only stat published that could easily translate toughness, so it was used. Now with all the available stats, it makes no sense to continue to use it as a toughness metric. If you want to count toughness, include fights or body checks (although I admit I am skeptical at the way body checks are calculated). I also don't see why this is even a debate anymore. Does any true fantasy fan actually use default rules for their leagues? Nobody in my league likes PIM as a stat, so we don't use it. I suggest you do the same for your league. I bet I'll see a Canadian team win the cup before I see Yahoo, CBS or ESPN change their default settings to something that makes sense, so you need to do it yourself. Mabus - Mabus Wed, 12 May 2010 09:14:02 +0100 http://hockey.dobbersports.com/index.php/columnistsarticles-mainmenu-77/17-archives-other-articles/2794-to-pim-or-not-to-pim-should-we-count-penalty-minutes-in-our-pools#comment-5978 I started a thread about PIMs on the Forum a while ago, because I want to start a Keeper League that reflects them more realistically. I wouldn't go so far as to ban them from Fantasy, they are a part of the game, after all, but I would count the Minor Penalties negatively, i.e. the less the better and count Fights/Major Penalties as a seperate, positive category. Many Fantasy Sites offer a lot of flexibility when it comes to stat categories, so why not use them? With Minor Penalties negative, it makes sense to include Hits as another category, to make up for the hit in value the prototypical Power Forward will take experience. But honestly - from a GM's viewpoint, the most valuable Power Forward is one who Hits without causing too many penalties... - Markus Wed, 12 May 2010 08:50:20 +0100 http://hockey.dobbersports.com/index.php/columnistsarticles-mainmenu-77/17-archives-other-articles/2794-to-pim-or-not-to-pim-should-we-count-penalty-minutes-in-our-pools#comment-5977 I've been saying it for as long as Dobber has... count Penalties Drawn (PD) but also count Fights (FIG) as a category. - Veritas0Aequitas Wed, 12 May 2010 08:24:16 +0100 http://hockey.dobbersports.com/index.php/columnistsarticles-mainmenu-77/17-archives-other-articles/2794-to-pim-or-not-to-pim-should-we-count-penalty-minutes-in-our-pools#comment-5976 I would say get rid of them. I am very good at tracking good PIM players, but I have always wanted a free pool hosting service that allowed for reverse scoring in PIMs, meaning in yahoo rotissirie that you would get 12pts for having the least amount of PIMs. They are called PENALTIES for a reason. Your team is penalised for essentially cheating on a play. The argument for good penalties is preposterous because it is an argument for the merits of cheating or deliberately doing something you are not supposed to in order to save your team from being scored on, or put in a spot where there is a chance the opposing team could score. That's not smart play that's lack of skill or ability, and you are penalized for it. Which results in your team being put in a worse position for a duration of time. It is not a good thing, but pools reward it as such. It also makes certain players fantasy relevant even though they play less time then they are penalized for. A goon can step on the ice have a charge a guy from behind, get in a fight, and get a game misconduct for 30+pims or so in one infraction, and yet played less than 5min of hockey. I would much sooner support hits, face-offs, or blocked shots becuase they create, start or stop plays. Penalties is just rewarded cheating that has nothing to do with skill. - Jon Dey Wed, 12 May 2010 08:10:51 +0100 http://hockey.dobbersports.com/index.php/columnistsarticles-mainmenu-77/17-archives-other-articles/2794-to-pim-or-not-to-pim-should-we-count-penalty-minutes-in-our-pools#comment-5974 PIM's should be removed from fantasy hockey and replaced with hits and blocked shots to show the defensive and tough side of the game. - James Wed, 12 May 2010 07:35:06 +0100 http://hockey.dobbersports.com/index.php/columnistsarticles-mainmenu-77/17-archives-other-articles/2794-to-pim-or-not-to-pim-should-we-count-penalty-minutes-in-our-pools#comment-5972 Great article Brent. Just as a quick fyi, I live in Dawson Creek (which is in northern BC) and it is a different city then Dawson City (which is in the Yukon). - doulos Wed, 12 May 2010 07:31:59 +0100 http://hockey.dobbersports.com/index.php/columnistsarticles-mainmenu-77/17-archives-other-articles/2794-to-pim-or-not-to-pim-should-we-count-penalty-minutes-in-our-pools#comment-5966 great read, Brent. - Matt Wed, 12 May 2010 05:56:31 +0100