Comments for The Wait Continues for the Coyote Kids at http://hockey.dobbersports.com , comment 1 to 17 out of 17 comments http://hockey.dobbersports.com Fri, 24 May 2013 21:24:36 +0100 FeedCreator 1.7.3 http://hockey.dobbersports.com/index.php/columnistsarticles-mainmenu-77/amato/2146-the-wait-continues-for-the-coyote-kids#comment-725 Using terms like "shockingly dumb" kind of gets in the way of any analysis, but Haynes does have a point. ......................... Any sophistry about teams using 5F and 0D ignores the reality that games are pretty much played at 3F and 2D aside from penalty situations. Since almost all the young studs noted above are F, it might make for a more succinct analysis to write off the 120 minutes played by the D and examine only the 180 minutes played by the forwards. .......................... Furthermore, it should be possible also to figure out how many minutes on average a team plays shorthanded/game and subtract that from the 180 to give you a real total for F "time-played" (it is almost always a F who is not on the ice on a penalty kill). Each F's time should note in parentheses how many minutes, on average, of their average total do they spend on the PK. ........ THEN you could look at the full-strength and PK minutes for each player and make a more objective comparison/analysis. - rattus rattus Tue, 11 Aug 2009 17:11:10 +0100 http://hockey.dobbersports.com/index.php/columnistsarticles-mainmenu-77/amato/2146-the-wait-continues-for-the-coyote-kids#comment-616 RE: Kevinsrangers I totally agree with you about playing time based on merit, but the teams that succeeded were giving their players fairly long leashes, where they were able to develop and flourish. Kane and Toews didn't even get that much time, only 18 minutes per game... Mueller averaged 17 minutes and ended up with 54 points in his rookie year, they started him off with the right formula, but ended up dropping the ball when they dropped him to 13 and 14 late into last season. That should have been the time to clear out all the old vets and give a gigantic leash for the young kids to play to their hearts content. - Gotlaid Tue, 04 Aug 2009 23:29:26 +0100 http://hockey.dobbersports.com/index.php/columnistsarticles-mainmenu-77/amato/2146-the-wait-continues-for-the-coyote-kids#comment-615 RE: STL and LA St. Louis Oshie 16:35 Berglund 14:43 Perron 12:33, 14:32 But to be honest I don't know if the Blues are a legitimate contender. I personally thought that they got hot at the end of the season due to Mason playings lights out rather than their 19th ranked offense getting them into the playoffs. LA Kopitar 20:32, 20:40, 20:27 Brown 10:29, 13:59, 18:43, 20:16, 19:24 Frolov 14:23, 17:13, 19:18, 19:56, 18:48, 19:55 LA follows the same trend by playing Kopitar and Brown big minutes the last few years, and they've improved quite a bit as well. Not to the extent as the big 4, but they're getting there and Dobber has them pegged as the big improvement team for this year. - Gotlaid Tue, 04 Aug 2009 23:22:16 +0100 http://hockey.dobbersports.com/index.php/columnistsarticles-mainmenu-77/amato/2146-the-wait-continues-for-the-coyote-kids#comment-614 RE: LetsgoCanes It's great that you made an inter-sport comparision. I basically just wanted to demonstrate, hey Pittsburgh, Washington, Chicago, Columbus and Phoenix were all in the same boat 4 years ago, why has Pittsburgh won a Stanley Cup, Washington/Chicago getting pretty deep into the playoffs and the Jackets cracking the playoffs, but Phoenix is still struggling amongst the bottom 3rd of the NHL. I just wanted to write about the forumla working for 4 other teams, why are you trying to be different? - Gotlaid Tue, 04 Aug 2009 23:13:29 +0100 http://hockey.dobbersports.com/index.php/columnistsarticles-mainmenu-77/amato/2146-the-wait-continues-for-the-coyote-kids#comment-613 RE: Lame Math It's actually not lame math but completely logical. Yes defensemen and forwards are different players, but at the end of the day 300 minutes is the maximum a team is going to get END OF STORY. How they split that 300 minutes is completely up to them, they could use 4 forwards and 1 D, or they can use 5 forwards and 0 D, or they can go the traditional route and go 3 forwards and 2 D. So yes if a defensive player is picking up 22 minutes of ice-time that's on a whole chewing into the 300 that's available for everyone else. Mueller might still get 20 minutes, but that means that someone else is getting shafted somewhere else. As for Upshall and Vrbata, you can't call that logic dumb without looking at the numbers. Upshall averaged 18:35 last season in Phx. Mueller averaged 16:04 on the season, but just 13:17 and 14:12 in March and April respectively. Turris averaged 12:55 on the season and 14:30 and 14:23 in March and April respectively. I'm not saying that's what they're going to repeat that this year, but just looking at the past, if they've given Upshall big minutes before you can't assume that they won't do it again this year, and that Mueller and Turris will automatically be given the ice-time ahead of Upshall and Vrbata. As for Vrbata, his salary will instantly give him additional responsibility. Face it do you think the Coyotes would go to such length, by dealing Hale and Fedoruk and taking on Vrbata's $3 mill salary, especially when they are already in financial trouble, to sit him in bottom six and give him less than 15 minutes of ice-time? I don't think so. I think you have to head into the season thinking what Notch said, that he's a good buy-low candidate for the future, and not to expect too much from him. I just see a lot of projections saying 75-80, and I'm like if Kane can't do it what makes you think that Muelle can on a jam-packed Coyotes team. - Gotlaid Tue, 04 Aug 2009 23:03:48 +0100 http://hockey.dobbersports.com/index.php/columnistsarticles-mainmenu-77/amato/2146-the-wait-continues-for-the-coyote-kids#comment-610 It all comes down to talent level. AO/Semin/Green, Crosby/Malkin/Fluery are above the potential of the Phoenix players. Phoenix always had nice high first rounders, but never were able to get a Tavaras, AO, Crosby, Malkin type of player with the picks they had. Turris, the highest pick still needs time to develop. Most players do with the exceptions of the top draft picks (Kane, Crosby, AO). For who they picked when they picked, there would be no reason to expect success at this point. However, the next three years are critical for Phoenix as their players approach the traditional 4 year break out marks. - RYENFORCERS Tue, 04 Aug 2009 11:48:31 +0100 http://hockey.dobbersports.com/index.php/columnistsarticles-mainmenu-77/amato/2146-the-wait-continues-for-the-coyote-kids#comment-609 ive been hoping for mueller to be a stud for a while but im convinced maybe hes just not as good as backstrom,crosby,ovi, stall ,etc. you have to earn your minutes and it comes from making the most of the minutes you get. - kevinsrangers Tue, 04 Aug 2009 10:51:24 +0100 http://hockey.dobbersports.com/index.php/columnistsarticles-mainmenu-77/amato/2146-the-wait-continues-for-the-coyote-kids#comment-608 I'd like to see St. Louis charted with these teams along with LA. Might provide some further insight.... - Ron` Tue, 04 Aug 2009 10:40:56 +0100 http://hockey.dobbersports.com/index.php/columnistsarticles-mainmenu-77/amato/2146-the-wait-continues-for-the-coyote-kids#comment-605 There is some very bad logic being used in this article. I'm referring to the 300 min logic where you seem to suggest that the defensemen on Phoenix's roster are somehow going to eat up the minutes that the youngsters would normally get. Newsflash - they play different positions. If Jovo's playing 22+ min a night it's not coming out of Mueller or Turris' ice time, it's coming out of Michalek or Yandle's. To then suggest that Vrbata and Upshall would be getting big minutes before Mueller and Turris is shockingly dumb. This math-based logic is so bad that I can only hope someone reading this doesn't actually give it any credibility. - Haynes Tue, 04 Aug 2009 09:27:22 +0100 http://hockey.dobbersports.com/index.php/columnistsarticles-mainmenu-77/amato/2146-the-wait-continues-for-the-coyote-kids#comment-603 i'm not convinced Phoenix is that "next" juggernaut. their 'youth' isn't in the same class as the teams mentioned above....in my humble opinion of course. ;D - John Ferguson Jr Tue, 04 Aug 2009 08:44:28 +0100 http://hockey.dobbersports.com/index.php/columnistsarticles-mainmenu-77/amato/2146-the-wait-continues-for-the-coyote-kids#comment-600 I don't want to shortchange this article as I think it makes some great points and supports them well but it's really simplistic analysis that an intern could do for an NHL club. Baseball has statistics coming out the rear end yet it took baseball execs FOREVER to use statistical analysis to improve their clus. It appears hockey management and coaching, at least in CLB and PHO, are where baseball was prior to the Money Ball era. We're all starved for relevant hockey info this time of year so keep up the great work, Dobber and 'staff!' - LetsGoCanes Tue, 04 Aug 2009 06:55:55 +0100 http://hockey.dobbersports.com/index.php/columnistsarticles-mainmenu-77/amato/2146-the-wait-continues-for-the-coyote-kids#comment-599 As much as I'd like to own some of the Coyote kids, I think I'd kill myself with frustration. Same deal with Filatov and Rads (pre-KHL). Maybe these teams want to tank for another season so they can draft even more blue-chip prospects. - chimp82x Tue, 04 Aug 2009 06:46:57 +0100 http://hockey.dobbersports.com/index.php/columnistsarticles-mainmenu-77/amato/2146-the-wait-continues-for-the-coyote-kids#comment-598 Who wrote this article? Under the title it says, "Written by Dobber", but this line confused me: "Dobber has him ranked as a 30th right wing and 43rd ranked center in the pre-season draft list, which is probably right around where he should be, so my suggestion is don’t overpay for his hype." No matter who wrote it, it is a great article. - SeaDawg Tue, 04 Aug 2009 06:43:37 +0100 http://hockey.dobbersports.com/index.php/columnistsarticles-mainmenu-77/amato/2146-the-wait-continues-for-the-coyote-kids#comment-597 Great article which to me reemphasizes what Malcolm Gladwell was saying in his book "Outliers". He suggests that people only become 'experts' in their field if they put in at least 10,000 hrs of experience. He uses hockey players as an example, as the players that are good end up getting more playing time and because of more playing time, they continue to get better and become 'elite'. A compounding effect. - cylee88 Tue, 04 Aug 2009 06:43:27 +0100 http://hockey.dobbersports.com/index.php/columnistsarticles-mainmenu-77/amato/2146-the-wait-continues-for-the-coyote-kids#comment-596 Great stuff as it's pretty helpful. Just a note you have the Pittsburg players twice under Pittsburgh and Chicago. - smack1919 Tue, 04 Aug 2009 06:13:53 +0100 http://hockey.dobbersports.com/index.php/columnistsarticles-mainmenu-77/amato/2146-the-wait-continues-for-the-coyote-kids#comment-595 Pittsburgh's players are listed in chicago, just to let you know. - spuzzumsrats Tue, 04 Aug 2009 06:11:56 +0100 http://hockey.dobbersports.com/index.php/columnistsarticles-mainmenu-77/amato/2146-the-wait-continues-for-the-coyote-kids#comment-593 Perfect. So you are saying Mueller will be a buy low candidate for another year. Sweet, gives me more time to try and get him before he becomes a superstar. Good article BTW. - notch4077 Tue, 04 Aug 2009 06:05:46 +0100