Sure that's foolish comparison but so is to think player development is linear. Look at Marty St.Louis. He certainly was and still is elite player despite getting there at an later age. And that goes for goalies even more. You can't rule out Lehtonen as being elite if he took the longer road there.


Sorry, but that argument makes no sense. We aren't talking about where to place Lehtonen is all-time goalie rankings. Marty would certainly be top-3 in that regard - no question about it. When ranking goalies of today I think Brodeur is still a great goalie but not as good as he once was. Yes, at this point I do think Lehtonen has passed Brodeur. And in terms of pure talent, yes I do think Lehtonen has always been right there with Brodeur. His game has just taken a longer path to develop where as Marty comfortably stepped in NHL and started to dominate. But the natural talent has always been there with Lehtonen. Lehtonen so far hasn't shown the consistency of Brodeur has throughout his career, but the talent level is there in my opinion.

__________________
UHL Pittsburgh Penguins

24 Team Fantrax Salary Cap H2H Dynasty League Daily
G, A, +/-, PIM, PPP, SHP, GWG, SOG, Hits, Blks, FOW
W, GAA, SV, SV%, SO
23 Man Roster - 3C, 3LW, 3RW, 3F, 6D, 1G, 4BN, 4IR
27 Man Minor Team

C- Tavares, Stepan, Hodgson, Shaw, Bjugstad
LW- Ryan, Perron, Downie, Killorn, Paajarvi
RW- Wheeler, Simmonds, Coyle, Frattin, Rinaldo
D- Schultz, JJ, Bogosian, EJ, Josi, Cowen, Muzzin
G- Lehtonen

F: Granlund, Silfverberg, Jensen, Dalpe, Bowman, Knight, Fasth, JAM
D: Beaulieu, Koekkoek, Gelinas, Pysyk, McCabe, Irwin
G: Nilsson, Nilstorp, Ramo, Berra, Brossoit, Gibson

What do you not understand? You said it wasn't about fantasy numbers and I agreed. So then its a discussion of pure talent I thought? And talent doesn't cease to exist just because you get old and your body starts to break down a bit does it? If that were the case we wouldn't have guys like Marty and Lidstrom and Selanne and St. Louis right? So if that's the discussion we are having then I think even speaking Lehtonen's name in the same breath as Brodeur is complete insanity.

I guess we're just miles apart on this but I think we're going to see Lehtonen come back to earth this season. He'll have a decent career I am sure, he's a decent goalie...but elite? Not even close IMO, I think you and Angus are delusional -lol

__________________
Thats me on the street with a violin under my chin, playing with a grin, singing gibberish.





P=1 DPts=1.2 +/-=.32 PIM=.08 PPP=.4 SHP=.6 S=.015 Blk=.2 Hit=.08
W=2 OTL=.8 GA=-.64 SV=.08 SO=3

Pro (23 keep 17)
C- Filppula,Turris,Stastny,Backstrom
D-Boyle,MDZ,Karlsson,Robidas,Goligoski,Schenn,Seiden berg
G-Anderson,Hiller,Rinne
LW-Malone,Parise,Rolston,Eriksson,Ruutu
RW-Alfredsson,Callahan,Setoguchi,Brown,Ryder,Vrbata

Farm (9 keep all, max 200 GP, 100 Goalies)
Colborne,Leblanc,Loktionov,Perreault,Tangradi,Blum ,Poulin,Markstrom

Agree with Carcillo. As I've said in other threads, Lehtonen is way underrated on these forums and to say Miller is "twice the goalie" that Lehtonen is, is a huge exaggeration.

Stars are an improved team (offensively - to be clear) this year and we got a glimpse of their sick new powerplay last night which was without Benn. They will win more games than the Sabres in my opinion.

If the price for Miller is significantly steeper, I wouldn't hesitate for a second to go for Lehtonen - I did in my cash pool.

__________________
2013 Bay Street CBS Playoff Cash Pool - $100 buyin
12 Teams, Points Only (G/A = 1, DG = 2, W = 2, SO = 1)

The Motherpuckers (5 NYR, 2 PIT, 3 VAN)
Forwards: Neal / Iginla / Nash / Richards / Stepan / Roy / Higgins
Defense: Del Zotto / Garrison
Goalies: Lundqvist

well to be fair, you BOTH own him...ever consider that that might be contributing to your man crush a little? I dunno man, I'll concede that he's surprised me with how much he's improved his play and conditioning since coming to the Stars but I prefer to take his success with a healthy dose of salt, especially when people start tossing the term 'elite' around. You need to put together at least 3 really strong seasons in a row to qualify for that conversation IMO

And I'm not a hater, I owned him in my league last season and was thrilled to get a career year out of him since it really helped my team. But when it came time to declare keepers and sign contracts I didn't have any hesitation dropping him.

__________________
Thats me on the street with a violin under my chin, playing with a grin, singing gibberish.





P=1 DPts=1.2 +/-=.32 PIM=.08 PPP=.4 SHP=.6 S=.015 Blk=.2 Hit=.08
W=2 OTL=.8 GA=-.64 SV=.08 SO=3

Pro (23 keep 17)
C- Filppula,Turris,Stastny,Backstrom
D-Boyle,MDZ,Karlsson,Robidas,Goligoski,Schenn,Seiden berg
G-Anderson,Hiller,Rinne
LW-Malone,Parise,Rolston,Eriksson,Ruutu
RW-Alfredsson,Callahan,Setoguchi,Brown,Ryder,Vrbata

Farm (9 keep all, max 200 GP, 100 Goalies)
Colborne,Leblanc,Loktionov,Perreault,Tangradi,Blum ,Poulin,Markstrom

Talent doesn't cease but level of game usually does as you get older and that's happened to Brodeur. That's why I said I consider Lehtonen to be the better goalie today. Lehtonen is getting to his prime and has risen his game to the elite level. Brodeur is still very good goalie but not the best in the world he was for a long time.

And as I said, I think Lehtonen is equally talented as Brodeur. Lehtonen has always had that world class talent. But I guess we're speaking different terms when it comes to that. What has made Brodeur so great is the talent and work ethic to be the best. Lehtonen has lacked the latter up until he got to Dallas. He's been relying only on his talent and that doesn't take you to the elite level unless you put the work to get there. Lehtonen in his days with Atlanta wasn't keen on practising and wasn't really in good shape and that caused all those groin problems. That's not something you've seen from Marty ever and that what's separates elite talent from one of the all-time greatest despite the level of talent being equal. So were probably not on the same page when it comes to the term talent.

Agree to disagree. Lehtonen will make you a believer.

__________________
UHL Pittsburgh Penguins

24 Team Fantrax Salary Cap H2H Dynasty League Daily
G, A, +/-, PIM, PPP, SHP, GWG, SOG, Hits, Blks, FOW
W, GAA, SV, SV%, SO
23 Man Roster - 3C, 3LW, 3RW, 3F, 6D, 1G, 4BN, 4IR
27 Man Minor Team

C- Tavares, Stepan, Hodgson, Shaw, Bjugstad
LW- Ryan, Perron, Downie, Killorn, Paajarvi
RW- Wheeler, Simmonds, Coyle, Frattin, Rinaldo
D- Schultz, JJ, Bogosian, EJ, Josi, Cowen, Muzzin
G- Lehtonen

F: Granlund, Silfverberg, Jensen, Dalpe, Bowman, Knight, Fasth, JAM
D: Beaulieu, Koekkoek, Gelinas, Pysyk, McCabe, Irwin
G: Nilsson, Nilstorp, Ramo, Berra, Brossoit, Gibson

Perhaps... or perhaps, we both drafted him because we really do believe he's a solid play

I don't have a man-crush on him (like I do Giroux)... nor would I say he's quite at the elite level (yet - but one more year like last year and I'd say he's there). I just think he deserves a lot more respect around here, and along the lines of what Carcillo said, I think he represents a tremendous value play because so many people overlook him.

Just as an example, I picked up Rask in the 2nd round of the cash pool in my sig, and I picked up Lehtonen in the 6th!! That's just insane considering they will likely finish within 10 points of each other in my format.

__________________
2013 Bay Street CBS Playoff Cash Pool - $100 buyin
12 Teams, Points Only (G/A = 1, DG = 2, W = 2, SO = 1)

The Motherpuckers (5 NYR, 2 PIT, 3 VAN)
Forwards: Neal / Iginla / Nash / Richards / Stepan / Roy / Higgins
Defense: Del Zotto / Garrison
Goalies: Lundqvist

I own him because I believe in his talent. Not the other way round.

I think Lundy is the best goalie in the world and I've never owned him in any fantasy league. So my opinion on Lehtonen has nothing to do with me owning him in my fantasy league.

__________________
UHL Pittsburgh Penguins

24 Team Fantrax Salary Cap H2H Dynasty League Daily
G, A, +/-, PIM, PPP, SHP, GWG, SOG, Hits, Blks, FOW
W, GAA, SV, SV%, SO
23 Man Roster - 3C, 3LW, 3RW, 3F, 6D, 1G, 4BN, 4IR
27 Man Minor Team

C- Tavares, Stepan, Hodgson, Shaw, Bjugstad
LW- Ryan, Perron, Downie, Killorn, Paajarvi
RW- Wheeler, Simmonds, Coyle, Frattin, Rinaldo
D- Schultz, JJ, Bogosian, EJ, Josi, Cowen, Muzzin
G- Lehtonen

F: Granlund, Silfverberg, Jensen, Dalpe, Bowman, Knight, Fasth, JAM
D: Beaulieu, Koekkoek, Gelinas, Pysyk, McCabe, Irwin
G: Nilsson, Nilstorp, Ramo, Berra, Brossoit, Gibson

fair enough Carcillo, I definitely respect your opinion so I'll be keeping an eye on his play to see if you're right.

Care to make a gentlemen's bet? How good a season do you see for him this year? Equal to last year? Better?

__________________
Thats me on the street with a violin under my chin, playing with a grin, singing gibberish.





P=1 DPts=1.2 +/-=.32 PIM=.08 PPP=.4 SHP=.6 S=.015 Blk=.2 Hit=.08
W=2 OTL=.8 GA=-.64 SV=.08 SO=3

Pro (23 keep 17)
C- Filppula,Turris,Stastny,Backstrom
D-Boyle,MDZ,Karlsson,Robidas,Goligoski,Schenn,Seiden berg
G-Anderson,Hiller,Rinne
LW-Malone,Parise,Rolston,Eriksson,Ruutu
RW-Alfredsson,Callahan,Setoguchi,Brown,Ryder,Vrbata

Farm (9 keep all, max 200 GP, 100 Goalies)
Colborne,Leblanc,Loktionov,Perreault,Tangradi,Blum ,Poulin,Markstrom

I'm not much of a betting man but I definitely expect atleast an equal season to last year. Though with a shortened season it's a bit harder to guess the numbers as one bad game can have bigger effect on overall numbers than usually. But I'd definitely put last seasons numbers as benchmark for Lehtonen this season.

__________________
UHL Pittsburgh Penguins

24 Team Fantrax Salary Cap H2H Dynasty League Daily
G, A, +/-, PIM, PPP, SHP, GWG, SOG, Hits, Blks, FOW
W, GAA, SV, SV%, SO
23 Man Roster - 3C, 3LW, 3RW, 3F, 6D, 1G, 4BN, 4IR
27 Man Minor Team

C- Tavares, Stepan, Hodgson, Shaw, Bjugstad
LW- Ryan, Perron, Downie, Killorn, Paajarvi
RW- Wheeler, Simmonds, Coyle, Frattin, Rinaldo
D- Schultz, JJ, Bogosian, EJ, Josi, Cowen, Muzzin
G- Lehtonen

F: Granlund, Silfverberg, Jensen, Dalpe, Bowman, Knight, Fasth, JAM
D: Beaulieu, Koekkoek, Gelinas, Pysyk, McCabe, Irwin
G: Nilsson, Nilstorp, Ramo, Berra, Brossoit, Gibson

Alright so you take the equal or over and I'll take the under...lets make it for something stupid, like if you win I'll change my avatar to a Pens logo for a week, if I win you change yours to a Habs logo...something like that

__________________
Thats me on the street with a violin under my chin, playing with a grin, singing gibberish.





P=1 DPts=1.2 +/-=.32 PIM=.08 PPP=.4 SHP=.6 S=.015 Blk=.2 Hit=.08
W=2 OTL=.8 GA=-.64 SV=.08 SO=3

Pro (23 keep 17)
C- Filppula,Turris,Stastny,Backstrom
D-Boyle,MDZ,Karlsson,Robidas,Goligoski,Schenn,Seiden berg
G-Anderson,Hiller,Rinne
LW-Malone,Parise,Rolston,Eriksson,Ruutu
RW-Alfredsson,Callahan,Setoguchi,Brown,Ryder,Vrbata

Farm (9 keep all, max 200 GP, 100 Goalies)
Colborne,Leblanc,Loktionov,Perreault,Tangradi,Blum ,Poulin,Markstrom