You guys are hilarious. This is the second thread I'm stumbling into where you're raging and debating.

I'm on the side of trading Elliot now. I don't think he gets any better and see last season as an anomaly in a strong defensive system. Take him out of St. Louis and back he goes. Much like taking Smith out of Pheonix would do the same thing. Get what you can while the getting's good.

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12 Team H2H Yahoo Dynasty League

G, A, +/-, PIM, PPP, GWG, FOW, HITS -- W, GAA, SV%, SO

3C - Backstrom, Stepan, Roy, Krejci, Bozak
3LW - Neal, Hall, Ladd, JVR
3RW - Horton, Callahan, Pominville, St. Louis, Atkinson
4D - Doughty, Phaneuf, Faulk, Campbell, Schultz
2G - Ward, Dubnyk

Farm - Anders Lindback, Mikhail Grigorenko, Joe Colborne, Charlie Coyle, Jakob Silfverberg, Matt Hackett

Yes, I noticed I would be arguing against him a second time, but couldn't resist

As an Ottawa Senator fan who saw Elliot play terrible 2 seasons ago, but did even worse with Colorado after the trade, screwing the Sens out of the Landeskog pick, I hold a grudge.

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Current: 3 NHL, 1 NBA
NHL winner '05,'07,'09,'11 (4/7)
NFL winner '10, '12 (2/3)

terrible goalies are terrible goalies it doesnt matter what the system is they just become less terrible

there is no question they are benefitting from their system (all goalies who play with a good d in front of them do) but there isnt a system in the league good enough to polish a turd into a diamond

if it was all system and mike smith was a smoke and mirrors hack then labarberas numbers would have been quite a bit closer than they were

It has to do with sample size. 38 games last year where he played at an ALLTIME BEST LEVEL. 130 games previously where he played at an average or below level.

Are Aebischer, Huet, Fernandez, Ellis, Hackett, Toskala, Roloson also all diamonds?

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Current: 3 NHL, 1 NBA
NHL winner '05,'07,'09,'11 (4/7)
NFL winner '10, '12 (2/3)

dude what the hell are you talking about the past of other players doesnt guartantee anything with regards to this guy

you listed 3 players earlier who had great starts to their careers and immediately flamed out

does that mean every single player who has a great first season will immediately flame out

players develop i know its a strange concept to think that the more one plays and practices at something that they might get better

i know its a strange concept that at some point they may work with someone who puts things in a way that they just get and they begin to improve as a result

i know that its a strange concept that different players develop at different rates and that development is not linear

but lets imagine for a second that that might be the way it works

like i said the guy could flame out absolutely there are no guarantees of anything

but to act like you know for a fact he will fail which is what you are doing is ridiculous

I am just saying his value is highest after his HISTORIC SEASON - HIGHEST SAVE % ALLTIME.

Buddy you asked for similarly aged players. You are saying he's like Thomas & Smith! Well, at least they played majority of the season (50+ games)

Elliot also only started 36 games. Harder for a goalie who plays 50+ games to be so consistent. In 40 games, goalies like Chris Mason, Huet, Jeff Hacket, Ron Tugnutt, Dan Ellis, Manny Fernandez also look like allstars.

The only goalies in the top 50 alltime save% more than once (playing 50+ games) are:
Hasek, Thomas, Lundqvist, Roy, Brodeur, Luongo, Vokoun

It's an all-star list of goalies, most considered either the BEST goalie in the NHL (won 16 vezinas between them), or top 5 at one point.

http://www.quanthockey.com/nhl/recor...l-goalies.html

All I've said Elliot's UNLIKELY to repeat last year, and with 2 starters in Rinne and Rask (.931 in 45 games), Elliot is more useful being traded. I don't expect him to fail, I expect him to be AVERAGE.

Have you seen Elliot ranked in the top 10 goalie list anywhere?
- Nichols 14, NHL 22, ESPN 23, Dobber 20.
Rask & Rinne are in every top 10 list, so the GM's not going to bench them for Elliot.

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Current: 3 NHL, 1 NBA
NHL winner '05,'07,'09,'11 (4/7)
NFL winner '10, '12 (2/3)

not true his trade value might be highest but his value might not be

if he becomes a starter his value could be higher as a 3 starter in a 12 team league

but once again i never said to hold onto the guy at all costs i said dont just get rid of him to get rid of him

i never said he was like thomas and smith i was pointing out 2 players who didnt find their pro game until later in their careers than people typically expect

again unlike you i have never declared he would go one way or another i suggested that unless something worthwhile was sent for him it might be worth to let it play out and see what happens

you on the other hand have declared exactly what his numbers will be next season if you like i could link to the post if you forget doing so

no where did i ever suggest he would repeat last season i suggested he might become a starting goalie not sure what any of this has to do with the price of tea in china as they say

you are arguing against an assertion i never made

no you did not
thats what you said and that is hardly average

what leagues are you in where every team in a 12 team league has 3 top 10 goalies

generally in start 2g leagues teams carry 3 goalies some will carry more

i dont understand where you come up with this idea that a 3rd goalie is not necessary in a start 2g league

nowhere did i ever say keep elliott because you will be starting him over rask and rinne but here you are once again arguing against something i never stated

not sure why you feel the need to continue to bring up shit i never said and then atribute it to me and argue against it

again i stated earlier when i said peaked i used the wrong word he likely never has another season like he did last season that doesnt make him worthless if he continues to develop into a starting goalie

goalies are expensive in 12 team leagues so if you can get one you have to develop its much cheaper than having to trade for one down the road

i can pretty much guarantee that if he needs to get another starter down the road it costs a bit more than semin and a prospect goalie

if thats all he is going to get i think that rolling the dice and seeing what happens with elliott is worth doing

he isnt winning this season either way and i would put the odds that semin sticks around and returns to form past this season at about the same that elliott can become a starting goalie

Now you are putting words in my mouth. I NEVER said to do this trade. I said not to trade for Semin becauae of KHL risk, and Pavelski better.

I just said that Elliot is not a guaranteed starter in the time being, so he has less need for him. I said he would likely return around his career average of 0.909. Well that is awfully close to the average nhl save % of 0.912 over the last 4 years since he's been playing regularly.
http://www.quanthockey.com/TS/TS_SavePercentage.php

You said he should ride out the season. All I said is if he can get a good player for Elliot trade him because in 2-3 years when he's competing he won't need him OR he probably won't be worth as much. Maybe he's a starter then, but maybe so is Bernier, Khudobin, Bishop, Emery, etc.

if he's not winning a championship with his team, he can even carry one goalie because he's rebuilding. Heck, I've won H2H playoffs carrying one goalie.

We both agree that only trade Elliot if he's getting something worthwhile, we just disagree on well he will perform from now on.

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Current: 3 NHL, 1 NBA
NHL winner '05,'07,'09,'11 (4/7)
NFL winner '10, '12 (2/3)

i didnt say you said to made the trade i am pointing out this is whats on the table and its not worth it

you said he doesnt need 3 goalies to me that implies get rid of the guy for anything

and in later posts i said he should move him if its a no brainer deal i never said hold onto him at all costs

no where in this thread do i recall you saying if he can get a good player all i recall seeing is that he doesnt need 3 goalies if i missed the post where you said good player sorry

but then again i have said all along if he can get something good he should do it as well not sure why you are continuing to argue this then

that would be beyond foolish in a 12 team league imo

goalies are too expensive to get ahold of down the line when you need them and you cant rely on the waiver wire to provide at exactly the right time

sooner or later unless you want to pay through the nose you will have to do this anyway

i would think that the forward you miss out on by 'wasting' the roster spot on a developing goalie would be cheaper than what you are going to have to give up to get the goalie you need when you need him

i never claimed to know how he will perform where you have

i have said multiple times he might become a starter going forward or he might not i have admitted he might not do anything ever again

at some point he will have to take that risk with some goalie or he will have to pay through the nose to get one