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  #21  
Old 11-06-2012, 11:20 AM
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Originally Posted by Hey_Robbie View Post
But there are only so many points to be scored in the 19 minutes per game Giroux is out there - when are these extra second assists going to accrue? It seems we'd have to believe that the Flyers as a team had to have been "unlucky" when Giroux was on so that in fact the total number of assists scored while he was on ice was low, and so if that regresses to the mean then we can boost Giroux's projection (not to mention all those who spent a lot of time on ice with him as found in Frozen Pool). If that's the case, couldn't we find this more reliably and with a (IMO) less tenuos chain of reasoning by looking for anomalies in Goals-For Off-ice/60min (available at Behind the Net)?In terms of pure numbers analysis, this seems to be sufficient, and maybe as far as we can go. Of course if a player suddenly has the opportunity to play with a sniper we can factor that in, but that's in the realm of what I think of as "hockey analysis" vs. "statistical analysis."
A fair response.

I think we have to start with one player-based statistic: A1 vs. A2.
I can't remember Giroux's linemates in 2009-2010 (the 47pt season), but if memory serves (as a Flyers fan)... back then Mike Richards & Jeff Carter were still centering their own lines and Giroux was C3. (Gagne-Richie-Carter were F1 and Hartnell-Briere-Leino/JVR were F2, if I recall).
In this case, his 3rd line linemates would be pretty poor & the only way he's going to get (non-PP) points is:
1. Score the goal himself.
2. Directly assist the goal-scorer.

Now, in 2010-2011 Giroux found his way up to the 2nd line, sliding Carter to RW for much of the season, with most common linemates (per LWL):
Powe - Giroux - Carter
JVR - Giroux - Carter
Zherdev - Giroux - Carter

Well, in that season he's now got at least one linemate that can also pass/score and even the 3rd linemate (JVR/Zherdev) is fairly skilled. This means there is now opportunity for more 2nd assists. Typically, we see this linemate-skill-increase and can cite that criterion alone as reason for point-increase. With a deft-passer like Giroux, it's even more of a bonus because he can pass to JVR/Zherdev and they may feed Carter... or he can pass to Carter and JVR/Zherdev may score. The opportunity for 2nd assists is mostly a reflection of his promotion to the 2nd line.

Now, we could have just seen it that way (promotion to 2nd line) and many people did (based on training camp line-ups & pure speculation of skill placement).
But the promotion comes because his own coaches were probably well aware that his passing talents (A1 heavy) were wasted on the 3rd line.

So - combination of hockey-analysis & statistical-analysis, yes.
The combination of both (which is represented here! in the Dobber community!) has the traits to see the increase coming!!!

Last edited by Pengwin7; 11-06-2012 at 11:25 AM.
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  #22  
Old 05-15-2013, 05:27 PM
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Originally Posted by Pengwin7 View Post
BEST (A1:A2)
84:16 Perry, Corey (ANA) [*19 first assists & 4 second asssists for Perry last year... indicates his assist total SHOULD increase with more A2.]
84:16 Stafford, Drew (BUF) [*25 first assists & 5 second asssists for Stafford last year... indicates his assist total SHOULD increase with more A2.]
83:17 Kennedy, Tyler (PIT)
81:19 Versteeg, Kris (FLA)
80:20 Tanguay, Alex (CGY)
80:20 Malkin, Evgeni (PIT)
[*As an example, this means that of Malkin's 59 assists last year, 47 were 1st assists and ONLY 12 were 2nd assists. Wow!]
79:21 Selanne, Teemu (ANA)
78:22 Burrows, Alex (VAN) [*Burrows was also one of the most Assist2 heavy guys in 2010-2011... so it shows this statistic is unreliable and CAN fluctuate.]
78:22 Couture, Logan (SJ)
75:25 Nash, Rick (CBJ)
75:25 Staal, Jordan (PIT)
75:25 Cullen, Matt (MIN)
75:25 Cammalleri, Mike (CGY)
75:25 Whitney, Ray (PHX)
74:26 Kane, Pat (CHI)
74:26 Bergeron, Patrice (BOS)
74:26 Alfredsson, Daniel (OTT)
74:26 Pavelski, Joe (SJ)
73:27 Hejduk, Milan (COL)

Others above 70:30 (Craig Smith, Grabovski, Taylor Hall, Tavares, E.Staal, Antropov, Oshie, Stepan, Gerbe, Spezza, A.Steen, Stamkos, Zetterberg)

******
About 80% of the NHL will fall between 70:30 & 40:60 ratio split
******

40:60 Ehrhoff, C. (BUF)
40:60 Landeskog, G (COL)
40:60 Carle, Matt (PHI)
40:60 Read, Matt (PHI)
38:62 Campbell, Brian (FLA)
37:63 Hamhuis, Dan (VAN)
35:65 Bogosian, Zach (WPG)
35:65 Seabrook, Brent (CHI)
35:65 Benn, Jamie (DAL)
34:66 Morrow, Brenden (DAL)
33:67 Elliott, Stefan (COL)
33:67 Connolly, Brett (TB)
33:67 Nikitin, Nikita (CBJ)
32:68 Bieksa, Kevin (VAN)

28:72 Wolski, Wojtek (FLA)
24:76 Boyle, Dan (SJ) [*For Boyle, this works out to his 39 assists as: 9 first assists and 30 second assists.]
17:83 Foligno, Marcus (BUF)
[*Really, it's a small sample size. Foligno only had 7 assists and this is the ratio for having one 1st assist & six 2nd assists.]

WORST A1:A2


Marcus Foligno & Nikita Nikitin were a few players I saw listed as great sleeper picks in their drafts... but how lucky were those assists?
Were they just luckily riding the coattails of their teammates?

Also - I now have some concern on a few players that I wouldn't have thought otherwise about: Jamie Benn & Gabriel Landeskog.
We always point to a good young player and expect their point totals to rise... but if they had a boatload of token 2nd assists... will they rise for sure?
2013 BUMP & review.

A look back at a my A1 vs. A2 thread from prior to this past season.

I flagged four player (above) for a decreased performance:
*Jamie Benn
*Gabriel Landeskog
*Nikita Nikitin
*Marcus Foligno

Benn put up 63pts in 71games last season. .887ppg
Benn put up 33pts in 41games this season. .805ppg
Production down.

Landeskog put up 52pts in 82games last season. .634ppg
Landeskog put up 17pts in 36games this season. .472ppg
Production down.

Nikitin put up 32pts in 54games last season. .593ppg
Nikitin put up 9pts in 38games this season. .237ppg
Production down.

Foligno put up 13pts in 14games last season. .929ppg
Foligno put up 18pts in 47games this season. .383ppg
Production down.

4 players pegged for production decreases... 4 correct.


Then again... some players that had really nice A1:A2 ratios also fizzled... Perry, Stafford, Kennedy.
Though, some did increase (Pat Kane!) and some continued to show high A1:A2 ratios for a second straight year (both Logan Couture!!! & Matt Cullen!!!).

Though this little project only has two seasons of analysis & one season of predictions... so far is DOES SUGGEST that players who had "good seasons" with a majority of their assists as 2nd assists... would be due for a decrease in production. While this isn't really a surprise - it does give us a reason to look at a player's A1:A2 ratio to check and see how he was getting those assists.

Summary:
Beware of forwards with heavy A2 quantities!

Last edited by Pengwin7; 05-15-2013 at 05:30 PM.
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  #23  
Old 05-15-2013, 05:44 PM
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in fairness, three of the four decreasers missed time and/or played for periods while injured... nikitin and foligno were easy calls to make, regardless of where there assists came from last year. neither one was going to repeat their production. benn played for big stretches hurt, joined a top six that only had one player from last year, and he missed training camp. landeskog suffered a concussion, missed time and came back to a team without a reason to live.

i do think there is something to be said about A1/A2 assists, I just don't think these guys clearly highlight anything to do with it.
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