The Blue Jays - relax - Page 2 - Fantasy Sports Forums

Dobber · #11 09-27-2012, 10:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by eyemissgilmour

Some terrific points brought up, and I agree with almost all of it.

I think they would be around a .500 team without the injuries.
Why not better?

1) John Farrell
Don't get me wrong, I actually like many things about Farrell, but he's in over his head. For a former pitching coach, he sure doesn't seem to know his pitchers very well (and, frankly, Romero deserved to be bullpenned or sent down a long time ago - he's been fighting his control all season, even when his offense was winning games for him).

2) Too many of their young guys act like superstars, but play like pedestrians
Four of their regulars immediately come to mind under this category... Lawrie, Escobar, Rasmus, and Alvarez. Lots of talent there, but the numbers don't lie - these guys are not playing up to their potential. Lawrie makes mistakes regularly, especially running the bases (and then tells the media it's from "playing hard" and "I'm not going to change" - like Wtf???). Rasmus is too concerned with his signature hand/arm gesture after every out he makes. It's nice that he's playing well defensively and putting up good power/rbi numbers, but how many other players are praised for batting around .225 ? Escobar needs no write-up. Attitude problem 101 and has always been that way (like another poster said in another thread... Atlanta is too smart an organization to trade away young promising talent unless the talent's got baggage.) And Alvarez has a great young arm, but zero focus out there. And every time I see him, he's laughing it up without a care in the world... an odd thing for me see considering his record and ERA.

3) Adam Lind
He's simply not that good. And they pencilled him in as a cornerstone player for some reason.

4) Ricky Romero
He has a good arm still, but I don't care how good your arm is... if you can't command your pitches anymore, and you lose your confidence, you're going to get hammered. Personally, even before the year started, I considered Morrow their ace with Romero #2. Romero is now completely lost, making their lack of starter depth a glaring weakness to fill in the offseason.

Lawrie's numbers would be fine though - it's called the domino effect. If Bautista remained healthy, his spot in the lineup would impact Lawrie's.

Lind they're stuck with. Good move to send him down, he came back a better player (though not much).

Romero, like I said, who saw that coming. But they didn't have depth and they paid for it.

Dobber · #12 09-27-2012, 10:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bondon

Sorry I'm horrible with the multi-quoting thing so I won't even bother haha

@Dobber - The whole 'normal' season with injuries though goes back to my point of lack of foresight...why didn't they pick up on Santos' pitching mechanics before investing so heavily in him as their closer? Why did they have three guys under 25 (two guys at the age of 22) as members of their starting rotation. I'm curious as to how many teams competing for their division lead and/or wildcard were also in that situation. I'd bet not many.

To be competitive in the AL East, many have said that you need to have at least 90 wins. Even with the added wildcard spot, you probably need around 90+ wins to take one of those two spots. Would the Jays be a 90 win team without their injuries? I highly doubt it.

With regards to my blurb about the drop off from AAA to MLB numbers, I was actually referring to more than just this year (poor wording on my part). Gose though to me needs A LOT of work on his plate discipline before he should ever be considered a lead-off man like the team had pencilled him in to be.

Just seems like every other team has that guy that comes in and hits the ground running to fill a hole in the lineup, whereas the Jays haven't really had one of those guys in recent years. Even golden boys like Snider, Lind, Arencibia...they'd tear apart the PCL, come up and at times struggle to stay above the Mendoza line. Lind has always and seemingly will always be a defensive liability, and Arencibia has been pretty brutal defensively this year IMO.

I would also consider the injury to Santos as possibly a blessing in disguise. Without that injury to Santos, Janssen wouldn't have had the chance to strut his stuff as a closer. I wonder what they do next year. Janssen is a pretty versatile pitcher, came up as a starter, was middle relief for awhile, and settled into the setup man role until this year. I wonder where they ask him to pitch next season.

@eyemissgilmour

I wonder a lot too about Farrell. Seems like a nice guy, but I wonder about HIS leadership abilities as well. I wonder a lot why this team is so undisciplined, and players repeat their behaviour that should be nipped in the bud...especially with a young team.
Also, doesn't really feel like Farrell goes to bat for his players in-game. Has he been tossed once from a ball game? I've never seen him REALLY irate before...and while obviously I don't want him to be like an Ozzie Guillen, it would be nice if he showed some fire once and awhile.

Sometimes I like to wonder how this team would fare, if we could swap everything back in the Halladay deal. Take away Gose, Drabek, and D'Arnaud from this team and have Halladay as the ace of the rotation, sheltering Romero from the ace hype that was given to him far earlier than it should have been.

Santos - an example of studying stats too much and not listening to scouts enough. But it's not like they traded Bautista, Drabek and a 1st for him. Not a lot riding on him. And it's not a lot to ask to have a guy throw 15 pitches three times a week - even if his arm were a spaghetti noodle, you could certainly feel safe with 15 pitches three times a week

dmvincent · #13 09-27-2012, 11:39 AM

Posting this from my phone, sorry for any spelling or grammar errors.

To me, the Blue Jays have done a lot of things right since Alex Anthopoulos took over as the GM.

1. They are widely regarding as having one of the best farm system's in all of baseball.

2. Acquired Colby Rasmus for hardly anything from the Cardinals, using bullpen depth to do so. Yes, he's hitting in the 220's, but when he was healthy and playing well earlier this season, he looked extremely dangerous in the Jays lineup.

3. They acquired and developed Jose Bautista properly, something that no other team could do. That includes the Tampa Bay Rays, Baltimore Orioles, Kansas City Royals and Pittsburgh Pirates.

4. Unlike the JP Ricciardi regime, the Jays won't rush prospects anymore. Everyone is being developed the right way and that's a huge positive for the future.

5. Acquiring Brett Lawrie for Shaun Marcum will end up being probably AA's best move. Lawrie is having a bit of a sophomore slump, but he's still getting on base and I know the power will come.

6. Putting Casey Janssen in the closers role was a very smart move by Farrell. Janssen is a guy I've always liked and his ability to use all of his pitches and throw strikes has turned him into a dominant closer. I think it would be a mistake to give the job to Sergio Santos next year, Janssen has earned it and looked really good as well (20 SV, 2.67 ERA).

7. Acquiring Edwin Encarnacion for Scott Rolen: Well, you know the story of this one. Much to his credit, Encarnacion has worked hard on developing his game so that he can have a better approach at the plate. More to the Jays credit, they never gave up on him and now he's a premier slugger in the American League. If you think this year is a fluke, you are very wrong. This is his upside, a 40+ homer, 100+ RBI guy.

Having said that, there are things AA did I really don't agree with.

1. Trading Aaron Hill for Kelly Johnson: Hill wasn't healthy, he had a few rough years but he still had that power second baseman upside which we saw once or twice while in Toronto. Johnson was known to be a guy that hits for a very low average and plays mediocre in the field. I can't stress enough how much that hurt the Blue Jays. Furthermore, Hill was a very likeable guy and one who I think was a leader that they sorely miss.

2. Shying away from Prince Fielder: AA and the Jays had the money to sign Fielder, but they chose not to because he wanted a long term contract as opposed to a few years at a high salary. Fielder is a leader and he would have been amazing protection for Jose Bautista. Put together the fantastic season Edwin Encarnacion is having and you have an amazing 3-4-5 combination if the Jays signed Fielder. You could have DH'd Encarnacion all year and signed Fielder. Its not a coincidence that Ryan Braun won the MVP while Fielder was with Milwaukee and now Cabrera looks like he may win one this season.

3. Going into 2012 with the pitching rotation he had: Not for one second did I think the Jays pitching would be a huge strength of the team. I had no idea Ricky Romero would be this bad, but there's a reason for it. If you didn't notice, veteran hitters have stopped swinging at his changeup because it has so much movement on it and never seems to be a strike. His trust and command of that pitch is essential, but overall his command has not been good this season and he walks way too many hitters I find. You can sit there in the front office and say "If Henderson Alvarez can put it together" and "If Kyle Drabek can become a viable starter" or you can take action. The Jays could have traded for pitching, but they decided to stick with what they had.

If the Jays want to improve, they need to do the following.

1. Go after a second baseman and top of the line starting pitcher.
2. Leave Casey Janssen in the closers role.
3. Trade Yunel Escobar (give Adeiny Hechavarria shortstop).
4. Adam Lind should not be a regular, he should be a bench player.
5. Go after some veterans, clearly they don't have enough leadership as is.
6. Rajai Davis is a utility player, you need a better left fielder than him and a guy that can get on base or provide some power.
7. Let Farrell go to Boston, because the story wouldn't keep coming up if he wasn't thinking about it.

That's just my take on the Jays, great discussion going here.

bondon · #14 09-27-2012, 11:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dobber

Lawrie's numbers would be fine though - it's called the domino effect. If Bautista remained healthy, his spot in the lineup would impact Lawrie's.

That is a fantastic point about the domino effect though and is one that I sometimes overlook. That was actually what cushioned Rasmus for the better part of the summer and saw him tear up the league for awhile there.

eyemissgilmour · #15 09-27-2012, 12:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dobber

Lawrie's numbers would be fine though - it's called the domino effect. If Bautista remained healthy, his spot in the lineup would impact Lawrie's.

Sorry, I don't buy this. For most of the year, Lawrie's either batted in front of Bautista (when healthy) or Encarnacion (who's having a career year). And Bautista's full time presence would have had no impact on Lawrie's reckless "do whatever I want whenever I want" attitude. Maybe it's too early to say this, but I will say it anyway... Lawrie is quickly becoming the Dion Phaneuf of baseball (most overrated guy in the sport).

That Rosenthal article summed things up perfectly. Thanks for posting Bondon.

bondon · #16 09-27-2012, 12:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dmvincent

Posting this from my phone, sorry for any spelling or grammar errors.

To me, the Blue Jays have done a lot of things right since Alex Anthopoulos took over as the GM.

1. They are widely regarding as having one of the best farm system's in all of baseball.

2. Acquired Colby Rasmus for hardly anything from the Cardinals, using bullpen depth to do so. Yes, he's hitting in the 220's, but when he was healthy and playing well earlier this season, he looked extremely dangerous in the Jays lineup.

3. They acquired and developed Jose Bautista properly, something that no other team could do. That includes the Tampa Bay Rays, Baltimore Orioles, Kansas City Royals and Pittsburgh Pirates.

4. Unlike the JP Ricciardi regime, the Jays won't rush prospects anymore. Everyone is being developed the right way and that's a huge positive for the future.

5. Acquiring Brett Lawrie for Shaun Marcum will end up being probably AA's best move. Lawrie is having a bit of a sophomore slump, but he's still getting on base and I know the power will come.

6. Putting Casey Janssen in the closers role was a very smart move by Farrell. Janssen is a guy I've always liked and his ability to use all of his pitches and throw strikes has turned him into a dominant closer. I think it would be a mistake to give the job to Sergio Santos next year, Janssen has earned it and looked really good as well (20 SV, 2.67 ERA).

7. Acquiring Edwin Encarnacion for Scott Rolen: Well, you know the story of this one. Much to his credit, Encarnacion has worked hard on developing his game so that he can have a better approach at the plate. More to the Jays credit, they never gave up on him and now he's a premier slugger in the American League. If you think this year is a fluke, you are very wrong. This is his upside, a 40+ homer, 100+ RBI guy.

Having said that, there are things AA did I really don't agree with.

1. Trading Aaron Hill for Kelly Johnson: Hill wasn't healthy, he had a few rough years but he still had that power second baseman upside which we saw once or twice while in Toronto. Johnson was known to be a guy that hits for a very low average and plays mediocre in the field. I can't stress enough how much that hurt the Blue Jays. Furthermore, Hill was a very likeable guy and one who I think was a leader that they sorely miss.

2. Shying away from Prince Fielder: AA and the Jays had the money to sign Fielder, but they chose not to because he wanted a long term contract as opposed to a few years at a high salary. Fielder is a leader and he would have been amazing protection for Jose Bautista. Put together the fantastic season Edwin Encarnacion is having and you have an amazing 3-4-5 combination if the Jays signed Fielder. You could have DH'd Encarnacion all year and signed Fielder. Its not a coincidence that Ryan Braun won the MVP while Fielder was with Milwaukee and now Cabrera looks like he may win one this season.

3. Going into 2012 with the pitching rotation he had: Not for one second did I think the Jays pitching would be a huge strength of the team. I had no idea Ricky Romero would be this bad, but there's a reason for it. If you didn't notice, veteran hitters have stopped swinging at his changeup because it has so much movement on it and never seems to be a strike. His trust and command of that pitch is essential, but overall his command has not been good this season and he walks way too many hitters I find. You can sit there in the front office and say "If Henderson Alvarez can put it together" and "If Kyle Drabek can become a viable starter" or you can take action. The Jays could have traded for pitching, but they decided to stick with what they had.

If the Jays want to improve, they need to do the following.

1. Go after a second baseman and top of the line starting pitcher.
2. Leave Casey Janssen in the closers role.
3. Trade Yunel Escobar (give Adeiny Hechavarria shortstop).
4. Adam Lind should not be a regular, he should be a bench player.
5. Go after some veterans, clearly they don't have enough leadership as is.
6. Rajai Davis is a utility player, you need a better left fielder than him and a guy that can get on base or provide some power.
7. Let Farrell go to Boston, because the story wouldn't keep coming up if he wasn't thinking about it.

That's just my take on the Jays, great discussion going here.

Great post...just wanted to toss in my thoughts on a few points.

- I have to eat some humble pie with regards to Encarnacion. I HATED the way this guy played when he came over...maybe it was because we were spoiled with guys like Glaus and Rolen at third base for the longest time but I couldn't stand "E5" and how he'd always botch plays. But good on him for working hard and good on the organization for putting him in a position to succeed. I hope he makes himself worth that contract.

- With regards to Hill, I don't really blame AA for pulling the trigger because I think that Hill was just one of those guys that benefited greatly from a change in scenery. Don't get me wrong, I loved Hill and I was really pulling for him to turn it around. I'm really happy that he's doing well, even if it's on another team...but he was never the same player for the Jays after that concussion. But god...Kelly Johnson...someone needs to show him a picture of a strike zone lol.

- Not so sure about the whole Prince Fielder thing. I didn't follow it too closely but I was under the assumption that they didn't really have a chance. I could definitely be wrong...but in any case I guess it was a risk that management wasn't willing to make (too scared after long term deals to guys like Wells/Rios that ended up being salary dumps?). Another thing is you never know how EE would have turned out had Prince Fielder been on this squad.

- Couldn't agree more about the starting rotation...that's the thing. Why start with those guys, and then go after pitching later? Why not go after pitching to start...get some veteran arms (even if they're so-so) just to shelter some of the younger guys from blowing out their arms and crumbling under the pressure.

- Don't even get me started on Rajai Davis...jesus. It baffles me how a guy with that much speed, is so crappy in the outfield. He's pretty much only good for one thing and that's running. The guy also can't hit a breaking ball, it's hilarious he's like Pedro Cerrano lol.

dmvincent · #17 09-27-2012, 12:36 PM

They were in the Fielder sweepstakes, but when they found out he wanted a long term deal they backed off.

Great thoughts buddy, I think the Jays will be really aggressive in the off-season.

bondon · #18 09-28-2012, 06:23 PM

Ha...Vizquel. Points out the obvious and creates a media firestorm. Wasn't he supposed to be brought in for character lol

dmvincent · #19 09-28-2012, 06:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bondon

Ha...Vizquel. Points out the obvious and creates a media firestorm. Wasn't he supposed to be brought in for character lol

Clearly he's no leader himself.

dmvincent · #20 09-28-2012, 07:41 PM

Alex Anthopoulos being interviewed on Sportsnet right now.

"It starts with the rotation, we need to improve our rotation so that it can compete in the best division in all of baseball." "That's our priority."

"The years when you struggle, you learn the most. I've learned a lot this year, I think we need more depth and we need to make a push to compete. Guys are going to get hurt, we can fill some spots and have some of the young guys waiting in the wings as well."

"Ideally, Anthony Gose will not be starting in left field next year. We like his progress, but we need an established player at that position."

"Travis D'Arnaud might open in the minors, but our concern is that he's healthy and ready to go for next season. He may be able to come into the lineup at designated hitter if all goes well."

"I expect our payroll to go up and we have our sights set on some of the top free agents out there. We can be more aggressive than usual and we will try and attract as many top free agents as possible."

"The Blue Jays can turn things around as quickly as the Baltimore Orioles, I really believe they can if we can add a few pieces. Its on me and its on the front office to do the work and make the 25-man roster better."

"I'm really looking forward to the off-season, I don't want to watch a team play this way. I want this team to win and I will do whatever I can to put a winning product on the field."

"Jose Bautista is doing well and he's well on track to return next year. We shut him down for precautionary reasons and because we don't have anything to play for right now."

Sounds like its going to be an exciting off-season.

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