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  #11  
Old 08-18-2012, 03:48 PM
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Originally Posted by dongjohnson View Post
Let's put this to bed once and for all, roids won't do much at the plate if your approach sucks. His plate approach and decision making have improved noticeably from 3 or so years ago. His power also improved only slightly, considering his 13 homers with the Yankees in 09 (at the old Yankee Stadium btw). Moreover, Melky tore up triple A at 21 and was no fluke. Dude's not a product of juice, sorry, not the case...
His power numbers and average are a full product of juice. The numbers speak for themselves. It is true roids won't do much if your approach sucks. He's been in the league a while now that he should be smart enough to have a better approach. All you need is that extra bit of bat speed and ever so slight quicker reflexes to bring a 265 hitter to a 300 hitter. He had a career high of 28 doubles before last year that balooned to 44. All of his power numbers are up well above his career averages. He had 40hrs total for his first 5 years in the bigs. This year and last year he has 29 and if he finished this season he would of come real close to matching his 5 year total in 2 years. SLG% and OPS are way up over his career norms. He did hit well in AAA but so do almost all players. Hitting well in AAA is meaningless in this discussion. Then to top it off, he admits he did juice!! If he did it, his numbers are a product of it and it's quite clear to see when his production took off.
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  #12  
Old 08-18-2012, 09:51 PM
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Originally Posted by Mr_Sausage View Post
His power numbers and average are a full product of juice. The numbers speak for themselves. It is true roids won't do much if your approach sucks. He's been in the league a while now that he should be smart enough to have a better approach. All you need is that extra bit of bat speed and ever so slight quicker reflexes to bring a 265 hitter to a 300 hitter. He had a career high of 28 doubles before last year that balooned to 44. All of his power numbers are up well above his career averages. He had 40hrs total for his first 5 years in the bigs. This year and last year he has 29 and if he finished this season he would of come real close to matching his 5 year total in 2 years. SLG% and OPS are way up over his career norms. He did hit well in AAA but so do almost all players. Hitting well in AAA is meaningless in this discussion. Then to top it off, he admits he did juice!! If he did it, his numbers are a product of it and it's quite clear to see when his production took off.
DISAGREE. First off, triple A numbers do matter, no, they're not pure but they are a basis in fact for discussing likelihood of success. Secondly, I think you don't quite understand baseball (not intending to be rude, but I grew up playing it for 4-5 years until my teens). The thing is that while extra power might make a few fly balls into homers, it will also cause you to LOSE at least as many hits, because whereas balls might've fallen in before, they now hang up and result in outs.

Your view on it is very, very simplistic. It's one that most casual fans hold but is quite wrong in reality. 90% of hitting is timing and technique, not power. Hitting for average is 95% timing and technique, pitch selection etc. It's true that power hitting involves more physical strength BUT that's a smaller component, by FAR, than is timing, technique, vision, experience, prepping for pitchers, et etc. How else can you explain the 5'8 ish 175lb Brandon Inge hitting more homers than Joe Mauer, who's about 6'5 and 230? Steroids will NEVER make an average hitter into a top ballot hall of famer, ever. It will turn a really good player into a great player or an above average hitter into a more consistent All-Star, but even that's only a likelihood, not a guarantee.
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12 team Full Dynasty w cap. 13F, 7D, 2G, 5B.
G 4.25, A 2.75, PPP 1.5, SHP 3, Hits 0.4, Blocks 0.5, PIM 0.25, DFP 1
W 5 OTL 1 SO 6 SV 0.25 L-1 GS 1

F:Stamkos, C Stew, R Johansen, B Dubinsky, Max Pac, Umberger, B Ryan, D Backes, T Ruutu, Lucic, Ott, MSL, Heatley, C Kunitz, J Benn, L Adam

D: C Fowler, Kronwall, A Goligoski, JM Liles, M Giordano, K Letang, N Nikitin, R Josi

G: J Quick, A Niemi, C Anderson, Rinne


Last edited by dongjohnson; 08-18-2012 at 10:07 PM.
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  #13  
Old 08-18-2012, 11:46 PM
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Originally Posted by dongjohnson View Post
DISAGREE. First off, triple A numbers do matter, no, they're not pure but they are a basis in fact for discussing likelihood of success. Secondly, I think you don't quite understand baseball (not intending to be rude, but I grew up playing it for 4-5 years until my teens). The thing is that while extra power might make a few fly balls into homers, it will also cause you to LOSE at least as many hits, because whereas balls might've fallen in before, they now hang up and result in outs.

Your view on it is very, very simplistic. It's one that most casual fans hold but is quite wrong in reality. 90% of hitting is timing and technique, not power. Hitting for average is 95% timing and technique, pitch selection etc. It's true that power hitting involves more physical strength BUT that's a smaller component, by FAR, than is timing, technique, vision, experience, prepping for pitchers, et etc. How else can you explain the 5'8 ish 175lb Brandon Inge hitting more homers than Joe Mauer, who's about 6'5 and 230? Steroids will NEVER make an average hitter into a top ballot hall of famer, ever. It will turn a really good player into a great player or an above average hitter into a more consistent All-Star, but even that's only a likelihood, not a guarantee.
Fair enough. I respect your point. I also agree with your assesment of what it takes to be a good hitter. I also fully understand the game of baseball. I played hardball for 20 years until I blew out my shoulder in my mid 20's.(pitcher). I live and a breathe baseball. Steroids will help you get that bat head out just a fraction of a second quicker which will turn a slow grounder into a fast grounder through the infield or a lazy fly ball into a drive into the gap. That's all the difference needed. Just a few mph on your bat speed which steroids will do and have been proven to do. All of your hitting theories are sound. I am not arguing any of that. It seems to me you are just brushing off his steroid use and suggesting it had absolutely nothing to do with his resurgence as a hitter. All I'm saying is that it did help him.
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Old 08-19-2012, 12:21 AM
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I respect your reply as well, and the problem is how much the PEDs help the guy depend on a whole lot of variables. With Melky, I dono man, he was well thought of and I definitely saw a lot of improvement in him from a few years ago. How much, we'll never know. It's also partially a pet peeve of mine, as a lot of people completely disregard what Bonds and Big Mac did, and they were tremendous hitters way before anyone accused them of taking steroids. Yeah, drugs destroyed the real record (Maris at 61) but those two were almost certainly Hall of Famers before the drugs.
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12 team Full Dynasty w cap. 13F, 7D, 2G, 5B.
G 4.25, A 2.75, PPP 1.5, SHP 3, Hits 0.4, Blocks 0.5, PIM 0.25, DFP 1
W 5 OTL 1 SO 6 SV 0.25 L-1 GS 1

F:Stamkos, C Stew, R Johansen, B Dubinsky, Max Pac, Umberger, B Ryan, D Backes, T Ruutu, Lucic, Ott, MSL, Heatley, C Kunitz, J Benn, L Adam

D: C Fowler, Kronwall, A Goligoski, JM Liles, M Giordano, K Letang, N Nikitin, R Josi

G: J Quick, A Niemi, C Anderson, Rinne

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