Essentially we're in agreement then. I was just thrown off by your wording. For the record I don't own Lehtonen in any leagues haha, but I wouldn't mind owning him for another year. I wouldn't expect him to put up the numbers he put up last year though.

I love how this has turned into a debate over something I didn't even say lol

__________________
2013 Bay Street CBS Playoff Cash Pool - $100 buyin
12 Teams, Points Only (G/A = 1, DG = 2, W = 2, SO = 1)

The Motherpuckers (5 NYR, 2 PIT, 3 VAN)
Forwards: Neal / Iginla / Nash / Richards / Stepan / Roy / Higgins
Defense: Del Zotto / Garrison
Goalies: Lundqvist

OK, well lets review...first you said:

and then follow it up with:

soooo, what conclusion were we supposed to come to from that?
And moreover, if you didn't mean defensively (which you've been quite adamant in stressing) then what? Offensively? How does offense help GAA, S% or SO?

__________________
Thats me on the street with a violin under my chin, playing with a grin, singing gibberish.





P=1 DPts=1.2 +/-=.32 PIM=.08 PPP=.4 SHP=.6 S=.015 Blk=.2 Hit=.08
W=2 OTL=.8 GA=-.64 SV=.08 SO=3

Pro (23 keep 17)
C- Filppula,Turris,Stastny,Backstrom
D-Boyle,MDZ,Karlsson,Robidas,Goligoski,Schenn,Seiden berg
G-Anderson,Hiller,Rinne
LW-Malone,Parise,Rolston,Eriksson,Ruutu
RW-Alfredsson,Callahan,Setoguchi,Brown,Ryder,Vrbata

Farm (9 keep all, max 200 GP, 100 Goalies)
Colborne,Leblanc,Loktionov,Perreault,Tangradi,Blum ,Poulin,Markstrom

Obviously I didn't mean defensively because that wouldn't make any sense, so common sense should tell you I was referring to offense, especially since they've made a lot of changes in that department during the off season.

If you actually read the whole thread (which you clearly didn't based on your last 2 responses), you'll see I've already answered these questions.

It's all moot anyway - this whole discussion was taken out of context because Pengwin made an inaccurate "inference" about what I said, and then proceeded to formulate a detailed rebuttal to an assertion I never made, and in classic mcgoo style, without reading the whole thread you "chimed" in, so I'm done wasting my time here fellas.

__________________
2013 Bay Street CBS Playoff Cash Pool - $100 buyin
12 Teams, Points Only (G/A = 1, DG = 2, W = 2, SO = 1)

The Motherpuckers (5 NYR, 2 PIT, 3 VAN)
Forwards: Neal / Iginla / Nash / Richards / Stepan / Roy / Higgins
Defense: Del Zotto / Garrison
Goalies: Lundqvist

Threads to avoid this year...

__________________
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right, cause a good defense is the bane of goaltenders everywhere

ok, I've got my popcorn and I you have my full and rapt attention. How does an improved offense lead to improved goalie stats? Certainly you'll get zero arguments from me in terms of Wins but what of S% and GAA? How exactly does that work?

I already pointed out how those two statements you made back to back were virtually impossible to construe otherwise but never mind that, we all word things poorly on occasion so lets assume this is just an example of that and move on OK? But why are you dragging me into this because you've got your panties in a knot with Pengwin? I read the whole thread, in fact I read it again after you two started sparring and I still can't make any sense of what your actual position on this is. You claim the Stars are a better team than last year and therefore Lehtonen should have as good or better numbers but you fervently dispute the fact that they are better defensively??? So all I'm asking is how exactly they are better and how that is going to translate into an equal or better Lehtonen. I don't think that's too much to ask is it?

__________________
Thats me on the street with a violin under my chin, playing with a grin, singing gibberish.





P=1 DPts=1.2 +/-=.32 PIM=.08 PPP=.4 SHP=.6 S=.015 Blk=.2 Hit=.08
W=2 OTL=.8 GA=-.64 SV=.08 SO=3

Pro (23 keep 17)
C- Filppula,Turris,Stastny,Backstrom
D-Boyle,MDZ,Karlsson,Robidas,Goligoski,Schenn,Seiden berg
G-Anderson,Hiller,Rinne
LW-Malone,Parise,Rolston,Eriksson,Ruutu
RW-Alfredsson,Callahan,Setoguchi,Brown,Ryder,Vrbata

Farm (9 keep all, max 200 GP, 100 Goalies)
Colborne,Leblanc,Loktionov,Perreault,Tangradi,Blum ,Poulin,Markstrom

First of all you're right - my bone was with Pengwin, not you. But you were the one who responded to my cynical tirade, so you happened to be in the line of fire so that's my bad.



First - to clarify a few things. I don't have a "position" in this thread - I never did. I was artificially given one by Pengwin so that he could attack it.

Let's go back to my original post in its entirety (as opposed to you snipping pieces here and there and taking it out of context):

"Lehtonen is seriously underrated on these forums. He's one of those quiet guys who just delivers. He actually had a pretty good year last season despite how crappy you guys seem to think the Stars and their defense were. 32 wins, .922 sv% and 2.33 GAA - pretty damn solid.

I think their team has actually improved this year, so those numbers should at least stay the same or improve."

Now I'm sitting here... reading this again, and I really don't see how you and Pengwin seem to believe, without a shadow of a doubt, that by saying "their team has actually improved" I was actually saying "their team has improved defensively". Where the hell does "defensively" come from?

1) Notice the insertion of a NEW paragraph? In case you who don't understand the purpose of a new paragraph... it is a tool that writers use to convey that they are moving to a new thought or topic.

2) Factually speaking, Dallas has lost several defensemen and hasn't signed any experienced guys to fill those shoes... so let's see... common sense here... why the hell would their defense improve? COME ON guys... you have to give me more credit than that, otherwise you're just being insulting.

So I think that puts the debate of what I actually said vs. what you think I meant to rest.



Now, if I WERE to take a position, I would still be against you Lehtonen naysayers in this thread and here's why:

1) It sounds like we're all in agreement that Dallas had a shitty defense last year. If that's the case, and Lehtonen STILL posted such stellar numbers, then how do you guys figure it can get worse? You guys claimed their defense was bad, and a ton of those guys got shipped out... so bad defensemen were shipped out, and new defensemen were moved in - defensemen who may be better than the crappy ones who were moved out.

My point being, if we all agree their defense was shit to start with, and Lehtonen STILL OWNED it, then how can you use the argument that their defense will get shittier by moving out defensemen who were shit to start with? You can't take both sides here.

I agree that their defense last year was shit, and I think their defense this year will probably still be shit, although who knows - it might be better. I don't think the GMs of Dallas are idiots, and they wouldn't move out 3 of their blueliners unless they had other kids that they have confidence in.

Either way - I don't believe it will have a negative impact on Lehtonen's numbers. Wasn't a factor last season, won't be one this season. Lehtonen has steadily improved - it's not like he had a string of shitty seasons followed by a great season out of the blue.

2) Their offense this year is WAY better than last year. Common - Jagr, Whitney, and Roy? All of these guys were close to point per game in recent seasons... hell Whitney was PPG last year! Those 3 vs. Ribeiro and Ott? Are you kidding me? Their top 6 next season will include the likes of Benn, Eriksson, Jagr, Roy, Whitney, Ryder and Morrow.

They WILL WIN more games. That powerplay is going to be sick (as Pengwin has said many times in other threads but conveniently forgot to mention in this one).

In case you guys don't get the connection (because you keep asking), more wins = good for goalie stats. Also, more wins *likely* = more shutouts.

So there you have it, I've explained MY VIEW on why their defense likely won't get any shittier than it already was (and hence ratios can stay the same or improve), and I've explained why their team has improved OVERALL (which is what I was trying to say all along), and how that translates to more wins and potentially more shutouts. You guys may agree or disagree... I really don't give a ****. What I do know is I stand by my word, and I have $500 that says Lehtonen will kick ass this year.

Any other questions?

__________________
2013 Bay Street CBS Playoff Cash Pool - $100 buyin
12 Teams, Points Only (G/A = 1, DG = 2, W = 2, SO = 1)

The Motherpuckers (5 NYR, 2 PIT, 3 VAN)
Forwards: Neal / Iginla / Nash / Richards / Stepan / Roy / Higgins
Defense: Del Zotto / Garrison
Goalies: Lundqvist

Its all good dude, just don't shoot the messenger y'know?

Lets address a couple things I think you're off-base with:

1)It sounds like we're all in agreement that Dallas had a shitty defense last year.

Now who's putting words in the mouths of others? Dallas was middle of the pack (17th) in team defense last year and they finished a few games out of the playoffs on a bad losing streak.
I dunno how that equates to a 'shitty' defense for you, but for me that's just a 'meh' defense.

2)Factually speaking, Dallas has lost several defensemen and hasn't signed any experienced guys to fill those shoes... so let's see... common sense here... why the hell would their defense improve?

a ton? they lost Pardy, Fistric, Grossman and Souray I believe. Grossman is really the only one that hurts them defensively over what they have this season IMO. Personally I see their D as kind of a wash with last year's. Like many teams they look to be trying to keep icing a competitive team on the ice while building with their young talent. For example they've got that kid Oleksiak who is just freakin huge...like Gill or Chara huge. I think when you've got a guy like that you need to develop him sooner rather than later because he can have such a huge impact on the team.

Plus aren't you're overlooking the forwards...team defense can be improved by a shutdown forward just as much as a d-man. Not saying that is the case here, but I recall a former Star named Jere Lehtinen who I would rather have on my team over most defensemen in the league, just sayin

3)Either way - I don't believe it will have a negative impact on Lehtonen's numbers. Wasn't a factor last season, won't be one this season. Lehtonen has steadily improved - it's not like he had a string of shitty seasons followed by a great season out of the blue.

He had a huge career year after many years of mediocre play, I'm not sure I follow you here.

4) Their offense this year is WAY better than last year. Common - Jagr, Whitney, and Roy? All of these guys were close to point per game in recent seasons... hell Whitney was PPG last year! Those 3 vs. Ribeiro and Ott? Are you kidding me? Their top 6 next season will include the likes of Benn, Eriksson, Jagr, Roy, Whitney, Ryder and Morrow.

Whitney and Jagr are both 40, I wouldn't put too much stock in that. The loss of Ott is huge. Just because a guy isn't a sniper or a dangler doesn't mean he doesn't have a huge impact on his team's success, Ott is that kinda guy and I guarantee you neither Whitney or Jagr are gonna fill the hole left behind by him. All those other guys you mention were there already so I don't understand why that's relevant? Also Derek Toy hasn't had ppg in 4 years, keep your facts straight

5) and I've explained why their team has improved OVERALL (which is what I was trying to say all along), and how that translates to more wins and potentially more shutouts.

So you feel the team has improved OVERALL, but not at all defensively? I think it might have been more clear had you just said as much in the first place, that their D was no better or worse but that their offense had improved dramatically enough that it at very least compensated for it. Because when we look at goaltender stats we automatically look at team D too. You think Chris Osgood was a good goalie? Or just a medicore goalie with a stellar D in front of him?


6)You guys may agree or disagree... I really don't give a ****. What I do know is I stand by my word, and I have $500 that says Lehtonen will kick ass this year.

your statement was "I think their team has actually improved this year, so those numbers should at least stay the same or improve."

so define the terms of the bet that are consistent with that statement and I will happily take your money

__________________
Thats me on the street with a violin under my chin, playing with a grin, singing gibberish.





P=1 DPts=1.2 +/-=.32 PIM=.08 PPP=.4 SHP=.6 S=.015 Blk=.2 Hit=.08
W=2 OTL=.8 GA=-.64 SV=.08 SO=3

Pro (23 keep 17)
C- Filppula,Turris,Stastny,Backstrom
D-Boyle,MDZ,Karlsson,Robidas,Goligoski,Schenn,Seiden berg
G-Anderson,Hiller,Rinne
LW-Malone,Parise,Rolston,Eriksson,Ruutu
RW-Alfredsson,Callahan,Setoguchi,Brown,Ryder,Vrbata

Farm (9 keep all, max 200 GP, 100 Goalies)
Colborne,Leblanc,Loktionov,Perreault,Tangradi,Blum ,Poulin,Markstrom

What a shame. I actually liked where this thread was going and thought it was pretty constructive.

In retrospect, you + goalies, it couldn't have ended any differently.

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Also on Twitter @SteveLaidlaw