My point is where do you draw the line? You can't say that knee braces aren't performance enhancing. I really don't see any difference between blood doping and surgery to replace a torn ligament and you could argue the same thing for hormone treatment.

We know that everyone has a different level of certain hormones. What if that's my area of shortcoming while yours is a weak knee ligament? Why are you allowed to supplement your deficiency while I cannot?

I really don't see how you can say this stuff is black and white. And cheating... don't even start. If you aren't cheating you aren't trying. That's a whole other story entirely.

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I would say knee braces are more protective than performance enhancing.

Anyone in the general public can get ACL reconstruction.

Blood doping and EPO is very rare in medical treatment except very specialized cases.

Only ones who get hormone treatment are ppl who've had their pituitary, ovaries or testicles removed and can't produce any. I am sure these guys are not deficient in hormones unless like UFC guys who have roided for so long that their balls shriveled up.

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I'll just wait for the movie to be made....

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This cracked me up for some reason.

I never liked Lance Armstrong. I never liked Roger Clemens. I almost liked Barry Bonds.

All guilty of lying and cheating. All so focused on their legacy. The pursuit of that dwarfed their perception of reality. I just made that last part up. I'm glad they are now thought of in a negative light. I'm just like that, kind of a hater for some athletes that come off as bigger than the sport. Large egos = crappy human being, no matter how many medals, ribbons, jackets, yellow shirts, trophies, titles, individual awards they win.

If use in the general public is where you draw the line then I'd say steroids should be legalized.

And as far as hormones go, people vary highly in the amount of testosterone they produce. One athlete could be producing three times what another athlete is, just on their own so where do you draw the line of deficiency?

I'd argue that surgery to replace a ligament is exactly as unnatural as hormone supplementation because a person can live a normal life without their ACL they just probably cannot compete effectively in sports but the same goes for hormones. A person can live a completely normal life with a generally low to average level of testosterone but they cannot compete effectively in the realm of professional sports.

I think that the only way to really look at this issue with a rational mind is to somehow remove the influence of the media. We've grown up our whole lives being told that stuff like surgery is good because it helps people recover from serious accidents while stuff like steroids are bad because they can cause long term health issues. Last time I checked however, surgery can do more harm than good sometimes and steroids if used properly can improve performance without causing any long term health problems.

Does anyone look down on Arnold Schwarzenegger for using steroids to help him win Mr. Universe and all those body building titles or do we just accept that steroids is a part of the body building world and move on? Because if you can't honestly say that Arnold's steroid use truly offends you then I think you are already on your way to accepting that steroids may just be a part of what the sporting world is today.

And having said all that, would I take steroids today? NO! I work as a fire fighter and I know guys who do use. I see the benefit but I'm not at that point where I feel I need to bother. Maybe that time comes in the future though, I don't know. It doesn't seem like anything we do today is natural any more.

How about the eyesight argument. You could say that glasses/contacts are as innocuous as a knee brace but what is laser eye surgery? How is that not a performance enhancement? Again, it's something that people get done all the time but you don't need it to live and you don't need it to survive.

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Blah, stupid phone.

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12 team H2H dynasty, most categories under the sun, incl. hits/blocks. Main team, farm

C: Kopitar Backstrom Stepan Cammalleri Little Bolland Laich Johnson
LW: Parise Lupul Erat McDonald Martin Silfverberg Nyquist Schwartz Morin Nieto Conacher
RW: PKane Doan Pominville Nash Clowe Lupul Rinaldo Stafford Rattie Stone Chiasson Ritchie
D: Green Suter Seabrook Dillon Beauchemin Schenn Letang Schultz Hamilton McNabb Rielly Harrison
G: Bryzgalov Pavelec Holtby Neuvirth Nihlstorp Lack CalPickard Andersen Stalock Sateri Eriksson
IR: Halak

The things you are comparing blood doping to are all used to bring you up to speed where you have a deficiency or an injury. Blood doping isn't taking care of a deficiency. It's effectively taking your endurance to superhuman levels. THAT'S the big difference.

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12 team H2H dynasty, most categories under the sun, incl. hits/blocks. Main team, farm

C: Kopitar Backstrom Stepan Cammalleri Little Bolland Laich Johnson
LW: Parise Lupul Erat McDonald Martin Silfverberg Nyquist Schwartz Morin Nieto Conacher
RW: PKane Doan Pominville Nash Clowe Lupul Rinaldo Stafford Rattie Stone Chiasson Ritchie
D: Green Suter Seabrook Dillon Beauchemin Schenn Letang Schultz Hamilton McNabb Rielly Harrison
G: Bryzgalov Pavelec Holtby Neuvirth Nihlstorp Lack CalPickard Andersen Stalock Sateri Eriksson
IR: Halak

Hesitated about getting into this discussion, but wtf....

I get what MD is saying and have often considered his proposed POV. I also do not disagree with Dakktium's () rebuttal. And let me further state I am not advocating steroid use in any way shape or form.

My whole hang-up has always been with how the argument in opposition has been phrased while attempting to convince young athletes to avoid this deleterious practice. This is neither a flippant nor a disingenuous POV. In fact, phrasing the argument is central with regard to persuading one's audience.

First is the argument that the PIDs provide any unfair advantage. Especially when using Lance as our example. If use was so widespread how much of an advantage is it? Not to sound trite, but seriously....if everyone is using PIDs then PIDs are a constant not a confound when determining outcome events.

As far as baseball is concerned, PIDs don't help with hand/eye coordination nor fielding. I know a lot of big S.O.B.s at the gym that can press 300+ lbs yet aren't coordinated enough to swing a sledge hammer against a tire, let alone send a 100 mph fastball yard deep.

Further to my point, more studies and media focus are needed on quantifying the number of athletes who engaged in steroid use yet failed to make the majors AND went on to experience subsequent ill health effect. Youth are short term goal oriented. So showing Mark McGuire in a courtroom years after hit smashed the home run record does nothing in convincing a young athlete to avoid PIDs.

Anyway...I am rambling.

I just think if the objective is to convince young would-be athletes to avoid a potentially hazardous health practice, they need to see the abject failures. Not the guys who achieved-but-then-something-happened-to-them-years-later.

Lance may be the poster boy.

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12 team, $$$, 24 players, Weekly, H2H, limited keeper (8), multi-cat (G, A, PIMs, Hits, SOG, HT/ W, GA, SV%, SO)

Start: 2C, 2RW, 2LW, 4D, 2G

Does blood doping harm the individual in any way?

If not then I am in favour.

Dunno. I was referring to 'roids but honestly there are so many synthetics out there I couldn't.

Again I am not adviocating a position per se. Merely trying to form a more valid foundation for an argument.

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Four out of three people have difficulty with fractions

Commish - Twisted Wrister Fantasy Hockey League

12 team, $$$, 24 players, Weekly, H2H, limited keeper (8), multi-cat (G, A, PIMs, Hits, SOG, HT/ W, GA, SV%, SO)

Start: 2C, 2RW, 2LW, 4D, 2G