deal

 

Fantasy Hockey Trading Guidelines: For those of you entering a fantasy league for the first time this season, or who are thinking about joining your for league for next campaign, may be a little nervous about how to conduct yourselves in terms of trading and negotiation. Furthermore, there are plenty of new commissioners who could probably use a couple of tips in terms of how to conduct deals while still holding yourself accountable as the "leader" of your league. You set the example, so you have to hold yourself to higher standards. I have taken the time to list not only what should be hardcoded into your rules, but also a few things to keep in mind if you want to maintain friendly relations with your fellow GM's.

 

The two sections are separated as "legally" and "morally". Those terms should be self-explanatory. Of course, in leagues that are roto-style and rely on automated tracking of points, would also rely on automated (i.e. managed) tracking of trades - thus, these guidelines are not aimed at you or your league.

 

Legally (Rule)

 

A trade between two teams becomes official when each team sends an email to the commissioner announcing an agreement involving assets. Both emails must be in agreement as to the exact assets moving from one team to the other.

 

In the event that the commissioner is involved in a trade, the other party involved must send the final confirmation email. If the commissioner agrees to the deal as discussed, the other party must then agree to the commissioner’s latest email. The deal can then be announced. In other words, if an owner makes an offer to the commissioner, the commissioner cannot simply announce the deal. The commissioner must accept the offer and then the originating owner must then send in his confirmation of the accepted deal.

 

 

Morally (Etiquette)

 

If you send an offer and the owner immediately accepts, you are morally obligated to send your confirmation to the commissioner. Legally, you can back out. But this would offend the other owner and probably damage future trade discussions. One way around this is in the wording. Simply adding the phrase “What do you think of - - “ to the offer makes it informal and a starting point only.

 

If you send an offer and the owner drags his feet for a day or more before accepting, you are within your rights from both a legal and a moral standpoint to back out of your offer if a player involved is injured, has a big night, or has a terrible night since you made the offer.

 

If you rescind your offer before the other owner responds, then no harm done.

 

If you send offers involving similar players on your team to multiple owners, then put that in the wording. “I’m shopping Player X and Player Y around. What do you think of - - “. Or “I’ll give you blank for blank, but I have another offer out there that I am waiting on that I would rather do, so let me hear back from them before we take this any further.

 

If you receive an offer, no matter how poor, always respond in a timely manner.

 

You are morally, but not legally, obligated to mention an injury if you believe the other owner may not know about it.

 

 


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John Turner said:

HockeyKnight
Settings for Trades at HockeyKnight We have a setting on our site for Commmish approval of trades, or not. Othewise trading is automated. If no Commish approval is required, any offer once proposed and accepted, is a done deal, and rosters are updated automatically for use the next day. Emails are automatically sent as trades are proposed and countered. The Commish approval setting was written into the code to ensure fair treatment, and the ensure nobody was playing farm team to another team, thus protecting the integrity of the pool. we are all big boys in our league, so Commish approval is not required (though some trades still resemble farm team hijinx, and these guys pay for it later in many ways - trash talk is one). New GM's in a new league might need some "coaching" so the Commish approval might be helpful in those cases. A lopsided trade can have a significant impact for a long time in keeper leagues (ours is 15 years + now).

Beofre anyone asks, the site is up and running, but we are still not happy with some of the coding. Many useful tables are not populating with useful information. We are continuing to work on it. Otherwise the site manages rosters exceptionally well, and accurately calculates standings. I'll post when we are happier with the way it presents information.

Best,

JT
January 28, 2011 | url
Votes: +0

Repent Tokyo said:

repenttokyo
dobber - why can't you use yahoo to track your points only league? you could use roto goals and assists cats and then ignore the yahoo roto rankings and just add up the points yourself. it would take care of stats gathering, and it would eliminate the the trade issue all in one fell swoop.
January 28, 2011
Votes: +0

Blood Slushee said:

Blood Slushee
Trading- Code of Conduct .....or just make your league a Yahoo league. Then we can dispense with these time consuming emails and exchange them for a simple Accept button.

I see though some people still make their pools live in the dark ages. So be it.
January 27, 2011 | url
Votes: +0

Dobber said:

Dobber
... Mike Sami - you didn't address my situation. An offer is sent involving the same player to two different owners. Both owners accept at the same time and forward to the commissioner. Thoughts?

This simple process avoids all possible problems and does not hurt anyone. And I doubt the law would accept a forwarded email in place of a binding agreement - unless they pulled it directly off the server of the IP (to prove it wasn't doctored), and last I checked, most fantasy owners can't or wouldn't bother, going through their IP to get the raw forwarded email this way.

Regarding your statement "who really cares about moral rules?". I'm trying to explain trading etiquette to new fantasy owners who absolutely appreciate it. I'm not sure why anyone would have a problem with my doing that.


RT - Yahoo is not an acceptable pool manager format for points only keeper leagues. I did say in the intro that those in roto leagues can have this process automated and thus do not need to read the article.
January 27, 2011
Votes: +0

Ron Burgundy said:

Ron Burgundy
Agree to disagree I love being able to title a thread with an Anchorman line.

Where I agree to disagree is that you are under a blanket moral obligation to tell someone that you are shopping a player. First of all, as a trade recipient you have to assume that the other owner is after one of your particular players, and/or that he is trying to get rid of one of his. Second, as a person proposing a trade it is a reasonable assumption that the recipient will see if he can get more for the players you are asking for.

Assumptions or not, I see nothing wrong with either course of action, for so long as that initial proposal is all that has gone on between the parties. And lets face it, most initial trade offers are shite anyway (THAT should be the subject of one of your rules).

Where the moral obligation comes in in my view is after that initial offer when the recipient has made a counter-offer or otherwise expressed some interest in the deal, i.e., when negotiations have begun. If you are the offeror and received a counter you should then say - cool beans, thanks for the interest but I'm close with the owner of Bettman's Buttpirates for my guy so you'll have to do better. Or something like that (and yes, you must use the phrase "cool beans")

As the recipient of the original offer if you have indeed gone out to test market value of the guys the offeror is after, you also need to be careful that you haven't made any actual offers to other owners, as if they get accepted you look like a douche for selling a guy without giving the original offeror a chance to up his bid; in other words you have a moral obligation to not sell out from under the original offeror. That's where some couched wording like Dobber sets out above comes in handy. This is just smart management too - your best return is if you can get other owners into a bidding war for your guy.

Those are just my views though - when in Rome...
January 27, 2011
Votes: +0

Screaming Jawa said:

Screaming Jawa
@ Mike Sami Years ago, we had a guy send in a trade that was Marian Hossa for a 3rd round pick. The commissioner approved it, but then the guy who owned Hossa, originally, said that he made the "3rd for Hossa" suggestion sarcastically, because of how the talks were going. (He valued Hossa, at the time, quite a bit; he was still just a prospect at the time.) He had no idea that the other guy would take him seriously and think that it was a legitimate offer. Once that mess was cleared up (trade reversed), it was deemed necessary that both parties must agree to a trade for it to go through.
January 27, 2011
Votes: +0

Mike Sami said:

Kudelskis Krushers
re: "legal" As a lawyer, I'm with Tyson on this one and that's how my pool works (I'm the commissioner). All I need is one email that shows that there was offer and acceptance. It seems pretty bush league to have your rules state that one owner can privately accept an offer and yet the deal does not go through because he holds back an email from the commissioner. Why bother with the rule then? Who really cares about 'moral' rules? At the end of the day, you care about whether the deal gets done. Show me that there was a private agreement and you've got yourself a deal. That's how the law works and that's how my pool works. Seems simple enough to me.
January 27, 2011
Votes: +0

Repent Tokyo said:

repenttokyo
yahoo makes this simple you can't trade a player to two teams accidentally - once one player clicks accept on a trade offer, the commish gets an email and he can either allow or disallow the trade.
January 27, 2011
Votes: +0

Screaming Jawa said:

Screaming Jawa
Maximizing Value Something that has been encouraged in the pools I'm in is to publicly post that a player is being shopped. For example, let's say I have Crosby in a pool, and everybody assumes that Crosby is untouchable. If I were to actually receive an offer for Crosby that I would consider, then I would announce to the pool that I'm considering moving Crosby.

In the past, before we'd do this, many times a year a trade would occur and half the league would chime in that they would've given more if they thought that the player was even available for a trade. By making it public, the response to people who say that is "well, he made it known that the player was going to be traded. Why didn't you jump in with an offer?"

This does help maximize the return on a player because sometimes a bidding war breaks out. But, more importantly, if you put this in your pool's rules, encouraging this process, then nobody feels slighted when a player they've gone after goes to a higher bidder.

January 27, 2011
Votes: -1

Dobber said:

Dobber
... Maybe it works out for you forever, or maybe one day, after 21 years in a pool (i.e. "mine") there is a misunderstanding. Perhaps it was picks, perhaps the email was sent but a part of the offer was cut and he forgot to paste it back in, or perhaps he sent the same two players in a formal offer to two different owners, who both accepted at about the same time.

Then what do you do? This is why hard and fast rules are needed. Your current way will probably work just fine, but what if it doesn't, in say 10 years? What if a newbie joins and offers a player to two different owners and they each accept? Put it on paper - both owners need to send the confirmation into the commish. Zero misunderstanding.
January 27, 2011
Votes: +0

Emanuel Sequeira said:

hockeymasters
a mistake made? Hi Dobber,

I just wanted to let you know that I think it was a good idea that you posted this, though it would have been better timing at the start of the season. Anyways, having said that, I'm the commisioner of a keeper league I started this season. I am wondering if I have broken the rule you just mentioned. I sent an offer for a trade and then after I sent it, I feared I had offered too much. Instead of asking for another player in the deal right away in the next email, I just waited for his response. He agreed to it but I had asked for him to include another player which he declined. I backed away from the deal all together. Was I in the wrong? A friend of mine said that I couldn't do what I did.
January 27, 2011
Votes: +0

Tyson said:

regiopolis
... I was just speaking "legally" in the sense that that's how legally binding contracts are formed in real life. If you make an offer and the other party accepts without condition, then a contract is formed (as long as the other technical requirements are in place).
Obviously in most hockey pools there is the added requirement that the trade be reported to, and potentially approved by, the commissioner (just like in the NHL).

BTW @Pengwin7, love the concrete joke. Planning to use it on my engineering friends.
January 27, 2011
Votes: +0

Luffy D Monkey said:

Luffy D Monkey
my league's method My league uses a different method that we've found so far to work just fine. We've got a running facebook thread for our hockey pool with all the GMs included. When two GMs talk about a deal and get something done, the conversation goes something on the lines of "we got a deal? Ok great, you want to post it or should I? Ok I'll go ahead and post it."

Once the deal's made its posted in the facebook thread, simple and effective. This works great for us since all of the GMs know each other.
January 27, 2011
Votes: +0

bam bam bigalo said:

rcole
Edlere Would it be wrong to offer up EDlLER for a healthy player before the big word gets out on his injury?
January 27, 2011
Votes: +0

Dobber said:

Dobber
Tyson If the commish does not get an email from each owner confirming the deal, then it's not a deal. So if you send an offer and the other guy accepts and sends it to the commish - you can hold back your confirmation and the deal won't go through. That would be morally wrong, however, and you would (and should) be ostracized as an "idiot".
January 27, 2011
Votes: +0

Pengwin7 said:

Pengwin7
Concrete Offer Somebody sent me a concrete offer once... but the water:to:aggregate ratio was way off.
This is what we call "Civil Engineering humour".

Oh, Waterloo - how you've geeked me.
January 27, 2011
Votes: +1

Tyson said:

regiopolis
... Actually Dobber, if you send someone a concrete offer and they accept without conditions, then you are legally as well as morally obligated to go through with the deal.
January 27, 2011
Votes: -1
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