KyleTurris

 

The better fantasy own - Matt Duchene or Kyle Turris? Answer will surprise you.

 

This week’s Cage Match examines two young centers – Matt Duchene and Kyle Turris – who most poolies would love to have on their teams right now. But which one will help your squad more over the course of the full season and beyond? You don’t need a crystal ball when you have Cage Match to tell the future!

 

Career Path and Contract Status

Both Duchene (in 2009) and Turris (in 2007) are former third overall draft picks; but that’s pretty much all they have in common in terms of what led them to this point in their careers.

Duchene was inserted into the NHL fulltime as an 18 year old, and oh boy did he hit the ground running, amassing 132 points in his first 161 games. His totals fell back a bit during the 2011-12 season that saw him dress for only 58 games due to leg and ankle injuries, playing hurt after the latter which led to him not even managing a 0.5 points per game output for the season. But any concerns about Duchene’s productivity have likely vanished after he rebounded to 43 points in 48 games last season and has come out of the gate this year with 19 points in his first 16 games.

Turris’ career journey has been more of a bumpy ride, particularly with Phoenix, where he spent his first three campaigns being shuttled between the NHL and AHL and compiled only 46 points in 131 NHL games. Then as an RFA prior to the 2011-12 season, Turris held out well into November before finally agreeing to a two year $2.8M deal with the Coyotes, who traded him to Ottawa almost before the ink had dried on the contract. With the Senators, Turris immediately showed signs of his true talent, tallying 58 points in 97 games. But he has really emerged in 2013-14, with 18 points through 17 games.

Turris agreed to a five year, $17.5M deal with Ottawa in August 2012 (to run through 2018), while Duchene is finishing a two year $7M contract this season before starting a new five year $30M deal.

Overall, Duchene gets the edge here as more of a proven commodity, although Turris’ fairly steady upward trajectory without a bad year “hiccup” like Duchene had in 2011-12 does win him some points.

 

Ice Time – Past Seasons and 2013-14 So Far

When considering this data, it’s worth remembering that Turris’ 2010-11 numbers were with Phoenix. And I only included his 2011-12 Ottawa numbers, not factoring in the six games he played with Phoenix that season before being dealt.

 

Season

Total Ice Time per game

Rank among team’s forwards

PP Ice Time per game

Rank among team’s forwards

SH Ice Time per game

2013-14

18:05 (M.D.)

19:31 (K.T.)

3rd

1st

2:47 (M.D.)

2:24 (K.T.)

2nd

4th

0:17 (M.D.)

2:23 (K.T.) – 3rd

2012-13

20:55 (M.D.)

19:38 (K.T.)

1st

1st

2:49 (M.D.)

2:44 (K.T.)

2nd

2nd

2:14 (M.D.) – 1st

1:25 (K.T.) – 8th

2011-12

16:17 (M.D.)

17:21 (K.T.)

8th

4th

2:24 (M.D.)

1:52 (K.T.)

1st

4th

0:02 (M.D.)

0:07 (K.T.)

2010-11

18:56 (M.D.)

11:16 (K.T.)

2nd

13th

2:50 (M.D.)

1:26 (K.T.)

3rd

9th

0:04 (M.D.)

0:04 (K.T.)

 

One thing that jumps out right away is that each player suddenly found himself “rewarded” with significant SH Ice Time in 2012-13 after having nearly none the prior two seasons. But what’s interesting is so far this season Duchene is back down to almost no SH Ice Time, while Turris finds himself with almost a full minute more than last year. If this keeps up, it will provide a nice benefit to Duchene and a potential drawback to Turris.

And although Turris is receiving nearly 90 seconds more of overall Ice Time per game than Duchene so far this season, their numbers are almost even if you subtract unproductive SH Ice Time. What’s more, Duchene’s 23 second edge in PP Ice Time this season might not look like much at first glance, but the more telling and advantageous number is Duchene’s percentage of overall Ice Time on the PP (15.4%) versus that of Turris (only 12.3%). And to make matters worse, Turris’s PP Ice Time is also down by over 10% from last season.

But the news is not all bad for Turris. While the fact that he’s once again leading all Ottawa forwards in overall Ice Time might not seem like a big deal after he already did it last season, consider that Jason Spezza has been healthy so far during 2013-14, yet despite that Turris has still managed to keep a lead in this area. This bodes well for the current season, and might be the first step in paving the way for Turris to become “the guy” in Ottawa.

In the end, Duchene gets the edge in this area, mostly due to his higher percentage of PP Ice Time and the concern over Turris’ increasing Shorthanded duties.

 

Injuries

Turris has avoided any notable injuries during his career; and other than leg and ankle issues during the 2011-12 season, so has Duchene.

But the fact that Duchene revealed after the 2011-12 season that he finished the year playing hurt is a bit of a red flag for poolies. While it shows admirable grit and determination for a player to never want to miss games, if that also means he’s willing to take the ice while banged up and only playing at – let’s say – 75% of his usual self, then poolies would suffer since they’d figure everything is fine and keep him in the line-up, to their detriment.

Small edge to Turris here, less so for actual injury risk than for Duchene possibly playing hurt in the future without poolies knowing.

 

Secondary Categories

Because games played varies each year I’m now listing all of these secondary categories (except for plus/minus) as per game numbers. I also added shooting percentage, since that will be especially relevant for 2013-14 as yet another factor to help see if the fast start for either player is more or less likely to continue.

 

Season

Plus/Minus

Hits per game

Blocked Shots

per game

PIMs

per game

Shots

per game (and %)

2013-14

 

+7 (M.D.)

+11 (K.T.)

0.9375 (M.D.)

0.588 (K.T.)

0.5 (M.D.)

0.529 (K.T.)

0 (M.D.)

0.47 (K.T.)

3.375 (M.D.) – 20.4%

2.88 (K.T.) – 8.2%

2012-13

 

-12 (M.D.)

+6 (K.T.)

1.02 (M.D.)

0.625 (K.T.)

1.00 (M.D.)

0.416 (K.T.)

0.255 (M.D.)

0.50 (K.T.)

2.81 (M.D.) – 12.9%

2.458 (K.T.) – 10.2%

2011-12

 

-11 (M.D.)

+12 (K.T.)

0.74 (M.D.)

0.4285 (K.T.)

0.707 (M.D.)

0.2653 (K.T.)

0.138 (M.D.)

0.5510 (K.T.)

2.275 (M.D.) – 10.6%

2.714 (K.T.) – 9.0%

2010-11

 

-8 (M.D.)

+0 (K.T.)

0.7125 (M.D.)

0.4615 (K.T.)

0.60 (M.D.)

0.2307 (K.T.)

0.4125 (M.D.)

0.2461 (K.T.)

2.525 (M.D.) – 13.4%

1.784 (K.T.) – 9.5%

 

Not only will Duchene give you more Hits, but his output is above average for a scoring center. This season has seen Duchene’s numbers in PIMs and Blocked Shots decrease, but neither player will give you much in these categories. Turris is the more consistent plus/minus contributor, but Duchene’s +7 so far this season isn’t just a case of him riding Colorado’s hot start, as that number puts him tied for fifth overall on the team.

Shots have been back and forth, but with Duchene holding decent edge in most seasons. Both players have very healthy Shots averages for centermen over the past two seasons, and were in the top 25 so far this season through November 11th.

Shooting percentage is interesting, as so far Turris is close to but actually below his year to year average, while Duchene is far above the 10-13% range from his most recent seasons, leading to Duchene tallying 11 goals in just his first 16 games (a 56 goal full season pace). Considering that Duchene has never even scored 30 goals over a full season in his career, look for his shooting percentage – and thus his goal totals – to come back to earth, although his overall points should stay solid.

 

Relative Value of Points

Points are more valuable for a fantasy team when they’re not shared by other players owned in your league, since those are the kinds of points that can cause actual movement in the standings. In looking at this area, it’s a good opportunity to examine the Frozen Pool data for each player in 2012-13 and to focus on the trends for this season thus far.

 

2012-13

 

48.52%

EV

9 DUCHENE,MATT - 11 MCGINN,JAMIE - 15 PARENTEAU,PIERRE

13.57%

EV

9 DUCHENE,MATT - 7 MITCHELL,JOHN - 15 PARENTEAU,PIERRE

10.65%

EV

9 DUCHENE,MATT - 92 LANDESKOG,GABRIEL - 15 PARENTEAU,PIERRE

15.08%

PP

9 DUCHENE,MATT - 92 LANDESKOG,GABRIEL - 90 O'REILLY,RYAN - 15 PARENTEAU,PIERRE - 26 STASTNY,PAUL

12.81%

PP

9 DUCHENE,MATT - 11 MCGINN,JAMIE - 7 MITCHELL,JOHN - 15 PARENTEAU,PIERRE

12.4%

PP

9 DUCHENE,MATT - 11 MCGINN,JAMIE - 15 PARENTEAU,PIERRE - 26 STASTNY,PAUL

 


14.34%

EV

11 ALFREDSSON,DANIEL - 73 LATENDRESSE,GUILLAUME - 7 TURRIS,KYLE

13.36%

EV

11 ALFREDSSON,DANIEL - 9 MICHALEK,MILAN - 7 TURRIS,KYLE

12.1%

EV

14 GREENING,COLIN - 33 SILFVERBERG,JAKOB - 7 TURRIS,KYLE

11.83%

EV

11 ALFREDSSON,DANIEL - 33 SILFVERBERG,JAKOB - 7 TURRIS,KYLE

31.36%

PP

11 ALFREDSSON,DANIEL - 73 LATENDRESSE,GUILLAUME - 7 TURRIS,KYLE

22.59%

PP

11 ALFREDSSON,DANIEL - 9 MICHALEK,MILAN - 7 TURRIS,KYLE

12.5%

PP

11 ALFREDSSON,DANIEL - 14 GREENING,COLIN - 7 TURRIS,KYLE

 

2013-14 (games through November 4nd)

 

54.31%

EV

17 DOWNIE,STEVE - 9 DUCHENE,MATT - 90 O'REILLY,RYAN

33.73%

EV

9 DUCHENE,MATT - 90 O'REILLY,RYAN - 15 PARENTEAU,PIERRE

54.41%

PP

17 DOWNIE,STEVE - 9 DUCHENE,MATT - 90 O'REILLY,RYAN - 40 TANGUAY,ALEX

13.24%

PP

9 DUCHENE,MATT - 11 MCGINN,JAMIE - 90 O'REILLY,RYAN - 15 PARENTEAU,PIERRE

11.03%

PP

9 DUCHENE,MATT - 7 MITCHELL,JOHN - 90 O'REILLY,RYAN - 15 PARENTEAU,PIERRE

48.26%

EV

16 MACARTHUR,CLARKE - 6 RYAN,BOBBY - 7 TURRIS,KYLE

20.7%

EV

89 CONACHER,CORY - 16 MACARTHUR,CLARKE - 7 TURRIS,KYLE

38.22%

PP

16 MACARTHUR,CLARKE - 6 RYAN,BOBBY - 19 SPEZZA,JASON - 7 TURRIS,KYLE

22.93%

PP

16 MACARTHUR,CLARKE - 6 RYAN,BOBBY - 7 TURRIS,KYLE

17.2%

PP

89 CONACHER,CORY - 16 MACARTHUR,CLARKE - 7 TURRIS,KYLE

 

Turris’ fast start to 2013-14 is all the more impressive considering that three of his most frequent linemates from 2012-13 (Daniel AlfredssonGuillaume Latendresse, and Jacob Silfverberg) are no longer even on Ottawa. But in a similar vein, the majority of Duchene’s even strength time thus far in 2013-14 has been spent with one player – Steve Downie – who’s already been dealt, and another (Ryan O’Reilly) who was not a regular linemate during 2012-13.

If the last three games are any indication however, both players now appear to have a set pairing of wingers - Bobby Ryan and Clarke MacArthur for Turris, and O’Reilly and P.A. Parenteau for Duchene, as these trios have lined up for over 80% of Turris and Duchene’s shifts in those three games. And although as of November 11th Ryan was 99% owned in Yahoo leagues, MacArthur was only owned in 20%, while Parenteau’s ownership sat lower than Ryan at 85% and O’Reilly (at 54%) was owned in nearly three times as many leagues as MacArthur.

Overall, these linemate ownership percentages balance out fairly well, giving neither player a clear edge in this area.

 

Value Vs. Cost

Like Ryan, Duchene is owned in 99% of Yahoo leagues, while Turris – still being less of a household name and without as much past success to point to – is owned in just 71% despite his fast start. These numbers emphasize that Duchene’s value already is in line with his production, whereas Turris’ isn’t as yet. This means you might still be able to get Turris for a bargain compared to his worth, and gives Turris a significant edge in this area.

 

So Who Wins?

In the end, I have to give a very narrow victory to Turris in one year leagues. Duchene is clearly more of a proven commodity, has several better Secondary Category numbers, no longer appears to be saddled with detrimental shorthanded duty, and gives poolies more of a balanced goals and assists total than most centers (including Turris). But as shown in the Yahoo ownership numbers, Turris gives you far better value for the stats he’s providing, and has a 2013-14 shooting percentage that’s actually a bit below his recent averages, unlike Duchene, whose is so unrealistically high that a goals (and perhaps points) correction is in order.

For keeper leagues, Turris wins as well, due to him having more room for improvement and fewer ifs. Turris is producing so well this season despite Jason Spezza still being the “1A” center and not to mention Turris’ 2:23 of SH Ice Time, slightly below average shooting percentage, and 36.0% offensive zone starts. In other words, things look like they can only improve for Turris down the road, even if (maybe especially if) Spezza is not re-signed after his deal ends next season.

On the other hand, I think that Duchene could be in for a bit of a rude awakening if – as expected – Paul Stastny heads elsewhere after this season. Stastny eats up a minute of SH Ice Time and only gets 42.3% offensive zone starts compared to Duchene’s 50%. If Duchene ends up having to absorb some of the “pain” that Stastny currently feels, then Duchene’s numbers could be at risk of once again falling below a point per game pace.

 

Recent Cage Matches:

 

Kyle Okposo vs. Bryan Little 
Jeff Skinner vs. Nazem Kadri 
David Desharnais vs. Tyler Ennis 
Dan Boyle vs. Kimmo Timonen 

Write comment
Comments (19)add comment

Skin Blues said:

Skin Blues
... Rizzee: "but it is something that can be accounted for and can make a difference between otherwise similar players"

No, it absolutely is not a factor in a player's value. It's a fallacy. Those points are scored regardless of who is on your roster. Player B's linemates will score exactly the same amount of points whether you pick Player B, or you pick Player A. The points are worth the same.

I can possibly see some value in owning a player with bad linemates (ie: Ott) because of the fact that if his linemates change, they will likely be better ones, like how Hartnell's value increased after he started playing with Giroux rather than a checking line. And vice versa, a player with amazing linemates (ie: Kunitz) could see his value plummet if he loses those linemates either to injury or line juggling. But the reasoning you gave just makes no sense.
November 15, 2013
Votes: +0

Isle B. said:

Isle B.
... If this year is too small a sample size for goals scored then why are you parsing some pretty arcane stats from this season to compare the players in other ways? This whole comparison makes absolutely no sense.
November 15, 2013
Votes: +0

RizzeeDizzee said:

RizzeeDizzee
... @Skin Blues - I forgot to add that another way to determine Relative Value of Points, and what I use at this stage of the season, is to look at the ownership percentages for a player's most frequent linemates. If Player A and Player B are pretty equal, but Player A's linemates are only 20% and 25% owned while Player B's linemates are 85% and 90% owned, then I'd rather own Player A since when he gets me points it is less likely that others in my league are sharing those points.
November 15, 2013
Votes: +0

RizzeeDizzee said:

RizzeeDizzee
... @Skin Blues - That is not what I mean by Relative Value of Points. The actual idea is if you take two 70 point players and Player A has linemates that also score 70 points each while Player B has linemates that only score 45 points each, then Player A has slightly more fantasy value since the points that he gets are less likely to be shared by his linemates and thus less likely to be reflected in the standings of your league. It's not a huge factor in deciding overall value, but it is something that can be accounted for and can make a difference between otherwise similar players.
November 15, 2013
Votes: +0

Skin Blues said:

Skin Blues
"Relative Value of Points" The "Relative Value of Points" section makes no practical sense. Yes, of course it's better if a bunch of nobodies get points rather than guys that are on other teams, but these are external to the decision to roster one player over another. It is a logical fallacy.

For example: Player A has crappy linemates worth 25 fantasy points, and Player B has amazing linemates worth 75 fantasy points. Player A and Player B are each worth 100 fantasy points. It makes absolutely no difference which one I pick. I get 100 fantasy points either way. The owners of Player A's linemates get 75 fantasy points either way. My decision to choose the guy with worse linemates does not have any effect on the other fantasy teams in my league.
November 14, 2013
Votes: +0

RizzeeDizzee said:

RizzeeDizzee
... @hank mooney - I mentioned the fact that Duchene played hurt (you meant 2011-12), which I think should be weighed against him. Wounded warriors are heroes in the NHL, but this is about fantasy hockey so Duchene doesn't catch a break for playing hurt. He's assessed based on all his numbers, warts and all so to speak. When and if he's able to sustain a shooting percentage above 15% or to stay at PPG numbers despite his shooting percentage going back down to usual 10-13% numbers, then things would be very different and he'd likely be my choice.
November 14, 2013
Votes: +0

hank mooney said:

hank mooney
... Those stats are 'dirty'. Duchene was injured for most of 2010-11, this has been widely acknowledged. Take look at what he's done in his last 60 game or so (this year and last year)--pretty much PPG.
November 14, 2013
Votes: +0

RizzeeDizzee said:

RizzeeDizzee
... @hank mooney - like others, your points make sense; but I'm sticking to my conclusion. One other thing to keep in mind - Duchene's stats over the past two seasons were 71 points in 107 games, while Turri's were 58 points in 97 games. Not too far apart. Also, you can see that I just covered Little in last week's cage match. And while I get what you mean when you suggest Nielsen and Kane, keep in mind that Kane has three times hit the point per game mark over a season. Last I checked Duchene hadn't.
November 14, 2013
Votes: +0

hank mooney said:

hank mooney
... Really? How about Frans Neilsen vs. Patrick Kane? Or Brian Little vs. John Tavares? At season's end, comparing Turris and Duchene will look just as stupid (well maybe not that bad, but you get the idea). Have you watched an Avs game this year? The guy is dominant on most shifts, he's got a gear that Turris clearly does not at this stage in his career. I think someone is looking to shop Turris maybe????
November 14, 2013
Votes: +1

RizzeeDizzee said:

RizzeeDizzee
... @Isle B. - True, but it's early and you can't look at just goals in a vacuum. After all, Claude Giroux has 1 goal and Nick Bonino has 5; which one of those guys wins in their Cage Match?

@4horsemen - I appreciate your comments, and particularly the logic and explanation behind them. I guess you and I see Shooting % differently, both in general and with respect to Duchene. While it's true that when one's Shooing % comes back to earth there can be an increase in assists, it's far from automatic. And don't forget the fact that Duchene does have a past history of SH Ice Time, so it's reasonable to expect that he'll see an uptick in that area once again if/when Stastny leaves town. I also don't happen to agree with your brief points about Turris, who I'm amazed has PPG stats so far this year given how he's being deployed. Plus, as I stressed in the comments, the winner must be based not just on pure value, but factoring in cost as well since most everyone reading this will not own either player.
November 13, 2013
Votes: +0

Isle B. said:

Isle B.
... I am talking this season: Duchene has 11 goals; Turris has 4 goals.
November 13, 2013
Votes: +1

4horsemen said:

4horsemen
... I have to echo what others have said, good writeup but you completely lost me with the conclusion. In fact, I was quite surprised to even see these two compared as it feels like a pretty lopsided match.

For starters, when watching Duchene it becomes apparent why his shooting percentage has improved over previous seasons....he's become one of the best skaters in the league and has the breakout gear that puts him in many high probability shooting situations. Turris does not possess this skill (huge advantage Duchene). I don't think Duchene's shooting percentage is as 'unsustainable' as you might think......BUT....since shooting % arguments can only be based on historical precedent then it's key to acknowledge that his assists are below his historical average so any 'regression' seen in his goal scoring should be more than made up for his increased assist totals.

Secondly, I don't follow your logic on Stastny's SH time going to Duchene if/when he leaves Colorado. There are plenty of teams in the league who don't even use one of their top centres on the PK at all so what evidence suggests that Duchene would pick up Stastny's minutes? ROR seems a more obvious choice to absorb those minutes but don't count out Nate Mac.

Lastly, 50% zone starts lands Duchene squarely as the 80th ranked C in this category. What evidence is being used to support the idea that Duchene would absorb some of Stastny's d-zone starts? There are reasons coaches deploy certain players in certain roles and Stastny is not seen as one of Colorado's main scoring threats anymore, thus he's taken on more of a two-way role. That doesn't have any bearing on how Duchene might be used in the future. Now, if there is something to be teased from the zone start data I COMPLETELY agree that it's an improvement for Turris....BUT.....it's a dangerous game to bet on a player being used differently in the future (I'm looking at you Jordan Staal). Sometimes players are just more useful in a two-way role and it seems a big gamble to assume a team will change how they use a player. Turris's two-way value could be his biggest downfall as far as poolies are concerned.

Conclusion: Duchene is one of the best skaters in the league and has taken his game to another level this season. He's playing on an improving (potential dynasty) in Colorado and will have all the scoring support he could ask for. He's not seen or being used in a two-way role and he has a FAR superior start to his career. Maybe Turris will get there soon but the safe money is clearly on Duchene.

Lets take another look at this one next year and see how it pans out.

November 13, 2013
Votes: +2

RizzeeDizzee said:

RizzeeDizzee
... @Isle B. - I respect your disagreement, but I'm not sure about your argument to support it. Of course Duchene has more goals - he was given huge ice time from game one, while Turris suffered through three lost seasons with Phoenix. Plus, I still stand by my conclusion that what we're seeing from Turris is a true breakout, while Duchene might just be overperforming, especially given his unsustainable shooting percentage.
November 13, 2013
Votes: +0

Isle B. said:

Isle B.
... Turris is a good player, but come on. This is his best season so far and Duchene has still scored almost three times as many goals.
November 13, 2013
Votes: +1

RizzeeDizzee said:

RizzeeDizzee
... @niconasr - When I talk about who wins a cage match, it's mainly geared toward those who have zero or one of these guys on their rosters, and I'm saying who I think will help their fantasy team the most while factoring in their respective value, cost, and performance. And in the rare case that someone reading this has both guys on their fantasy team, it could help them decide whether they might want to move one of them, and, if so, which one to choose.

Make no mistake - Duchene is great and should continue to produce and will provide excellent value to those who drafted or traded for him before the season. But a guy who's 99% owned in Yahoo leagues should be doing this well, while Turris is far exceeding the value of a 71% owned guy. And while there are several factors suggesting that Turris could still improve (even during this season), the same does not appear to be true about Duchene, who might even be due for a slight bit of a downgrade in production from what we're seeing now.
November 13, 2013
Votes: +0

niconasr said:

niconasr
... @RizzeeDizzee

I understood all of your points and they make perfect sense. I'm not questioning their validity, I just find it a thin base to believe Turris is a better choice than Duchene, that's all. I actually kind of hope you're right because I just traded for Turris a few days ago and hope he can flourish even more in Ottawa. Your article gave me even more reason to believe I did a good trade. smilies/smiley.gif
November 13, 2013
Votes: +0

RizzeeDizzee said:

RizzeeDizzee
... @niconasr - that was part of what led to my conclusion, but the other aspect is Duchene's shooting percentage and goal pace. As of now the players are essentially equal (particularly in a points league), and Turris is more likely to continue (if not improve upon) his current pace, while Duchene could be playing above his actual production level. And although Duchene is indeed more proven, that also can work against him since if he's playing above his proven level then he's more likely to fall back, while what we're seeing from Turris could be more easily explained as a breakout performance, particularly since he's doing it with poor shooting percentage, a good amount of shorthanded time, and low percentage of offensive zone starts.

@ProdigyUI - in a points only league I see them finishing pretty close, although if you're looking to acquire one of them then I'd give the edge to Turris since it will likely take less to get him than Duchene. Duchene's edge comes in league that weigh goal more heavily and that count categories like Hits and Shots.
November 13, 2013
Votes: +0

niconasr said:

niconasr
... I was with you until the verdict. You're basically saying 'Go with Turris because maybe he'll be even better than now'. That's pretty thin, especially because his 2013-2014 numbers are only for 16 games. Very limited data. Turris should profit if Spezza moves on but not Duchene if Statsny leaves simply because he may get more SH-time? I mean, I understand your logic but it seems like very little to go for Turris over Duchene.

You said it yourself, Duchene is, by far, the more proven commodity. Plus, he passes the eye-test much better than Turris.

Still though, good article with a solid breakdown of both player's productions.
November 13, 2013
Votes: +1

ProdigyUI said:

ProdigyUI
... points only leagues who wins?
November 13, 2013
Votes: +1
You must be logged in to post a comment. Please register if you do not have an account yet.

busy